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Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

nytimes.com

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Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#591

Post by kzrdude »

zarzavat wrote: post #318
fsckboy wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nearly the entire point of the United States at its founding was that the law should apply to political leaders. I think that's overstated. First of all, it was the Magna Carta which established that the king was not above the law, so in that sense the founding of the United States was more "and we don't need a king". Second, there are frequently legal discussions in the present day as to whether a sitting presiden…

Just to clarify. The King of the UK is above criminal law. The monarch of the UK cannot be arrested or charged with an offence, or be personally involved in criminal proceedings. That is similar to the immunity given to the sitting US President. What is different is that monarch is not really expected to obey the law either. For example, the Prime Minister was fined for illegally not wearing a seatbelt. If the king d…

That the king is above criminal law does not directly dispute the Magna Carta thread of this conversation.

We take it for granted now, but it was a beginning of constitutional order - king and government should follow certain laws and rules for how to run the country. And the UK is after all a constitutional monarchy, no longer at mercy to the whims of an autocratic monarch.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#592

Post by armada651 »

stuckinhell wrote: post #367
djha-skin wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. It feels a lot like the indictment of Al Capone. His lawyers were always concentrating on the big picture but they ignored the small stuff and the government was able to catch him on tax evasion. Getting indictment of any sort can lead to larger ones.

I see this alot. Donald Trump isn't Al Capone,and the analogy fails enormously. Donald Trump is a former president of the United States. He's beloved by his base in quasi-religious way, even across the globe. Italy had parade with a "God-emperor Trump". Trump cannot be treated with like Al Capone. He has run as the anti-establishment candidate, and by god you better have a bulletproof case on him or you have just ang…

> He's beloved by his base in quasi-religious way, even across the globe. Italy had parade with a "God-emperor Trump".

This wasn't the loving display of affection that you make it out to be:

> The official description of the statue says that the float was created by artist Fabrizio Galli, whose past sculptures included satirical depictions of Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

Source: https://time.com/5526224/trump-float-italy/

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#594

Post by ZeroGravitas »

tpoacher wrote: post #576
paul7986 wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Trump fan but this is more political/media theater B.S. and brought on by all his many deep pocketed enemies. He surely has tons due to his awful mouth (shut it and do your job like Biden does for the people or Bush did or Obama). Nothing will happen to him just more lame reality TV type drama that gets ratings.

Worse. As many have pointed out: "If he gets arrested, he's your next president." Wouldn't be the first leader whose arrest led to raging popularity and revolt.

Prominent Republicans (like John Bolton) have claimed that Democrats are intentionally targetting Trump to increase his popularity with his base so that he'll definately become the nominee and then be easy to beat.

Whether you believe that or not, its wild that we're in such a position that claims like that could be made.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#595

Post by armada651 »

ahiknsr wrote: post #573
stuckinhell wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this alot. Donald Trump isn't Al Capone,and the analogy fails enormously. Donald Trump is a former president of the United States. He's beloved by his base in quasi-religious way, even across the globe. Italy had parade with a "God-emperor Trump". Trump cannot be treated with like Al Capone. He has run as the anti-establishment candidate, and by god you better have a bulletproof case on him or you have just ang…

> This guy is a Napoleon or Caesar in the making, Did Napoleon or Caesar also try to overthrow the democratically elected government when they lost the election?

Napoleon was never up for election, but as for violently overthrowing an elected government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_of_18_Brumaire

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#597

Post by BrandoElFollito »

Seam0nkey wrote: post #549
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since there is the concept of sealed indictment, why are all the indictments not sealed (or none of them)? I guess this is to preserve the person that is accused (because an accusation is easier to make than to defend, given the visibility decided by the media, supporters, etc)) - do why some are more preserved then others? Since the topic is a hot one, please note that I am from France and have no stakes nor interes…

Most indictments are never sealed (if the accused has been arrested on other charges, for example, there isn't much use in trying to keep it secret from the accused), and the ones that are always become unsealed in order to go to trial. There are a number of reasons to file an indictment under seal - ranging from juvenile records to managing flight risks of the accused. The one that is probably most pertinent in this…

Ahhhh, the seal is there to keep the details secret for everyone, including the accused. OK, now I understand the reason behind this mechanism (especially that the indictments are unsealed when when going to trial).

Thank you for the precisions

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#598

Post by mcculley »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #531
analog31 wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I read, the indictment is sealed. Does that mean we don't really know precisely what the charges are yet? I'm willing to wait and see. Also, from everything I've read, well defended people are remarkably hard to convict. This is as it should be, as it may let some people go scot free, but protects the rest of us. Convicting Trump will be hard. It might fail. Does this mean that charges should not be brought…

Since there is the concept of sealed indictment, why are all the indictments not sealed (or none of them)? I guess this is to preserve the person that is accused (because an accusation is easier to make than to defend, given the visibility decided by the media, supporters, etc)) - do why some are more preserved then others? Since the topic is a hot one, please note that I am from France and have no stakes nor interes…

> I am from France and have no stakes nor interest in the political discussion

The impact of U.S. politics goes well beyond its borders.

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#599

Post by speedylight »

meragrin_ wrote: post #357
richk449 wrote: post #338

Biden pardons Trump. Outrage mitigated. Base can’t rage. Biden easily wins re-election.

This isn't a federal charge. Biden can't pardon anything.

They’re saying the charge is related to campaign finance violations, isn’t that a federal crime?

Re: Grand jury votes to indict Donald Trump

#600

Post by NullInvictus »

guelo wrote: post #550
adam_arthur wrote: post #539

Just going to drop this here, make of it what you will. "By intentionally obscuring their payments through Perkins Cole and failing to publicly disclose the true purpose of those payments,” the campaign and DNC “were able to avoid publicly reporting on their statutorily required FEC disclosure forms the fact that they were paying Fusion GPS to perform opposition research on Trump with the intent of influencing the ou…

That issue was resolved when the FEC did an investigation and issued a fine. There was accountability. Why should there be no accountability for Trump?

It’s just Whataboutism. What the DNC did or did not do is entirely irrelevant to the case, because the DNC is not who was standing before the grand jury.

“You could pin this on a large percentage of politicians”. Yes, please. It will in fact be good for the country. I don’t care what party they come from.

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