More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships • Hacker News Board

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#591

Post by rahimnathwani » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 5:57 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #487

jedberg wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the main question is are the highest paid workers getting that because of college, or did the most driven and smartest go to college, and would have been equally successful had no one gone to college? Back in the day (pre-WW2) most successful people did no go to college. College was for wealthy trust fund kids to spend some time meeting other wealthy trust fund kids, because there just weren't all that many colle…

Yes, that is precisely the question that has been asked & answered, and the general consensus in the academic literature (for example https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322 ) is that it’s both. The Fed paper I linked to here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35212497 shows dramatically higher income and wealth premiums for educated people in the 30s and 40s, so you might want to take a peek.

The GP asked what the outcomes would have been if no one had gone to college.

This isn't answered by the paper you linked, which discussed the impact on individuals of college choice in a world where people do* go to college.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#592

Post by latency-guy2 » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 5:57 AM UTC

thomastjeffery wrote: post #350

fschuett wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The third place is called "church" and it has been the center of socialization for 2000 years before western society replaced it with college and nightclubs.

I disagree. Church is more equivalent to hobby clubs and work. Church is focused on a specific narrative, whether that be religious belief or generalized "unity". No matter how casual the experience, churches have purpose and exclusivity . The third place isn't only physically missing: it's missing in our social behavior. It could easily exist in public parks, but we are expected to avoid strangers.

The other place you are missing in your life is self inflicted. No one stops you from going to church, you are. Capitalism created so many opportunities for you to choose that you are now afraid of making a choice.

At what point will you stop saying

> It could easily exist in public parks, but we are expected to avoid strangers.

And instead admit that YOU don't want to meet strangers, and that YOU expect others to avoid YOU. Bars are still a thing. Guys and girls nights are still a thing. Bowling, soccer, football, drama club, night club, drugs, hiking, climbing, the gym and so on for literally a million other things. Millions of people partake in these things every day. Every. Day. They are all happy to do it without you, because quite frankly, you do not exist.

Just admit you love sitting on the internet rather than going outside. Just admit it. It is bizarre that this is even a talking point. You learned how to be anti-social because you've found that it benefited you, there is no risk to being online, you don't have to embarrass yourself talking to other people. You don't want confrontation, you don't want to deal with the emotions and personal lives of others, you don't want any of the baggage that comes from interacting with humans whatsoever.

Even with the invention of the internet, you can invent your own "third place", and many have in numerous ways including forums, social media, special interest groups, gaming communities ALL exist here. So no. I won't listen to this bullshit of a missing 'third place'. You are anti-social, and you don't want to fix your issues.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#593

Post by mtrower » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:05 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #352

mtrower wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatives and businesses want more people to take low-paying jobs, and having the masses be educated threatens their ability to pay minimum wage. Not having tradesman threatens the ability of society as we know it to continue. We aren't going to get far without carpenters and plumbers. These jobs simply need to pay more. > and it really very much undermines the notion that somehow people are getting tricked int…

> These jobs simply need to pay more. Totally agree! What can be done to get trade jobs to pay as much as white-collar desk jobs that require degrees? > It’s also quite possible for them to come out of college $40k in debt, with no job to show for it, and end up struggling to pay that off for the rest of their lives. It is possible, sure, but the data shows conclusively that you’re better off, statistically speaking,…

> So if we’re going to talk about struggling, we need to be fair to the people who struggle to pay for food and housing, not just struggle to pay off their college debt.

You don't think this overlaps? If you're coming out of college with no job to show for it, what is your job? You probably didn't prep for something substantial, because college was your career plan, and it bombed.

> The average outcome for degrees is double the salary and double the lifetime earnings.

I'm not sure averages are a useful metric for bi-modal distributions --- either you got a career out of the degree, with an increased salary, or you didn't. If you didn't, you're struggling right along with the people who never went to college. Possibly you're worse off, due to worse prep, and ofc you have your mountain of debt hanging over your head that will have major lifelong repercussions (assuming it doesn't get hand-waved away). So the way I see it, I'm talking exactly about those same people.

> Totally agree! What can be done to get trade jobs to pay as much as white-collar desk jobs that require degrees?

I don't know =(

I mean, there are forces at work right now equalizing things to some degree; lack of labor supply will drive up prices. But whether it will end somewhere reasonable, I'm not sure. And with workers across the board demanding wage hikes, inflation will continue to rise, returning us to square zero...

I do think comp needs to come down for some things like software development. I realize pay distribution here is bi-modal; I'm talking about the high-side, which is way out of whack. Really doesn't match the inherent utility at all, in my opinion. This would indirectly raise the value of lower comp positions (such as the trades).

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#594

Post by mtrower » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:09 AM UTC

Dudeman112 wrote: post #305

mtrower wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just indoctrination. Great I guess if you agree with the brainwashing. Not so great if you're on the other side.

Yes, there's a big overlap between "learning" and "indoctrination". For mysterious reasons we only care about not being indoctrination when it comes to adults or almost adults People wouldn't learn anything if they had to deeply understand and verify every part by themselves before moving on Great I guess if you're happy with most of society never moving too far past what's covered in the first stretch of middle scho…

> Yes, there's a big overlap between "learning" and "indoctrination".

Perhaps if you subscribe to the "chinese master" mentality. I never had much regard for this.

> For mysterious reasons we only care about not being indoctrination when it comes to adults or almost adults

Uh. I sure gave a damn for all of my memorable life --- literally since at least 4 years of age. I don't know about you.

> People wouldn't learn anything if they had to deeply understand and verify every part by themselves before moving on

This is true to some extent of everyone, but I always tried to think for myself as much as possible. Actually, it earned me a lot of scorn and ire, for not just following the herd...

> Great I guess if you're happy with most of society never moving too far past what's covered in the first stretch of middle school

If by middle school you mean social pressure to conform... well, I'd say we want the opposite of that.

If you mean that without indoctrination, people won't move past middle school in terms of knowledge... well, I would argue that most people don't seem to retain most of what they learned in middle school and high school to begin with... hell, that's basically the first half of college right there, just re-hashing those same topics...

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#595

Post by latency-guy2 » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:12 AM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #589

derbOac wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"seeking credentials for what we already know" Not about you at all in particular (quite the opposite), but this is what drives me into a frenzy of frustration about the world today. Seems like everything is about credentials and appearance rather than obvious potential or ability.

On the other hand, if you reek of obvious potential and ooze ability from every pore, and WGU can get you a degree in six months, why don’t you have that credential? Credentials don’t really prove ability, but there’s a weird staying power that can come from the “minimum bar” it sets.

Easy, I don't want to pay $4000 to someone who provided me no benefit, gave me negative value because I already wasted my time just completing the exams.

In what world would you donate 1 - 5 weeks pay just for the honor of it? I'm not sure plumbers are around here to give you a plaque that says "My toilet is working" for your house guests to ogle at.

Yes, I understand that the credential is what removes us from candidacy in job applications, and I also understand that this has a cost benefit to the employee that may exceed $4000 on it's own. But should things be that way? My thinking is no speaking on the employee's side.

On the other end it is obvious that at minimum credentials proves to the employer that the employee is at least 4 years old and can read enough to fool another 4 year old. I guess it is also cheaper to filter through thousands of infants who otherwise do not have the same credential. So maybe I'm just pissing into the wind.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#596

Post by mtrower » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:13 AM UTC

psyklic wrote: post #357

mtrower wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just indoctrination. Great I guess if you agree with the brainwashing. Not so great if you're on the other side.

It's "indoctrination" to point out arguments that fall apart under a modicum of critical thinking? You could easily argue that education involves learning to construct solid arguments that do not fall apart.

No, not at all. You have to look at the context here, the post that I'm replying to. I'm a strong, staunch supporter of critical and independent thought. I'm sure some colleges probably teach that well, and I would heartily support, promote and defend such establishments, insofar as those practices were concerned. However, this is not what is being disputed.

> > A lot of what the general public gets isn't deep thought. It's being told what to think. A lot of the what to think is ideas based on assumptions and beliefs. Are people better off for learning them?

The issue is that azinman2 says this is fine (due to a claimed worse alternative). This is not critical thought at all. "Being told what to think", "based on assumptions and beliefs", is simply indoctrination. I cannot and will not support such.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#597

Post by vxNsr » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:21 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #487

jedberg wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the main question is are the highest paid workers getting that because of college, or did the most driven and smartest go to college, and would have been equally successful had no one gone to college? Back in the day (pre-WW2) most successful people did no go to college. College was for wealthy trust fund kids to spend some time meeting other wealthy trust fund kids, because there just weren't all that many colle…

Yes, that is precisely the question that has been asked & answered, and the general consensus in the academic literature (for example https://www.nber.org/papers/w7322 ) is that it’s both. The Fed paper I linked to here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35212497 shows dramatically higher income and wealth premiums for educated people in the 30s and 40s, so you might want to take a peek.

Whether it’s fair to say or not: trusting professors to do a fair study on whether their expertise is necessary isn’t exactly an unbiased study.

I’m sure they meant well but it’s just hard to take anything they’re saying at face value.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#598

Post by vxNsr » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:23 AM UTC

irrational wrote: post #508

meh8881 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People talking about the economics of college and citing their experience from over two decades ago as if it’s supposed to be comparable to today is really frustrating.

The economics wasn’t the important part. The things I learned studying ancient history and linguistics and how those have made me a better person and developer are. I do understand how much tuition has skyrocketed. The year I graduated, tuition was $1,360 per semester. In 2023, tuition is $3,152 per semester. That is a $1,792 increase only 25 years (I graduated in 1998)

What school only charges $6300/yr?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#599

Post by kortilla » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:24 AM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #360

xyzelement wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

> Eg I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis. This is bullshit. The difference is that today, your own culture e.g. (non-native) American society till the modern day is considered fair game for analysis, whereas 20 years ago there was probably a fair…

> This is bullshit. The difference is that today, your own culture e.g. (non-native) American society till the modern day is considered fair game for analysis, whereas 20 years ago there was probably a fair bit of "they are savages to be studied, whereas we are civilized" complex going on.

Emotional temper tantrum - check.

Whataboutism referring to other cultures - check.

> Guess what, things change, and usually in a way that society is better

Unchecked assumption that “new” = “better” - check.

Definitely the product of modern academia lacking any critical thinking skills with a knee jerk reaction to any criticism.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#600

Post by peanuty1 » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 6:27 AM UTC

lvl102 wrote: post #126

hotpotamus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of those is not like the other in that it requires extensive college. It also happens to be the one that pays more than the others.

If you start out early enough, you can be retired from law enforcement with pension earlier than you think (typically 20 years) which is actually a perfect time for you to go get a law degree.

Why is the age of 41 (assuming you became a police officer after college) a good time to get a law degree?