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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#591
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of reliable 15-year old cars. (My wife drives a reliable 18-year old, 225K mile car. We took it on a 1600 mile roundtrip for the winter holidays this year with no particular fear that it wouldn't run like a top for the entire trip.) The idea that cars are only reliable for 5 years and 60K miles is, IMO and IME, quite out-dated. That was more true in the days of carburetors, points-based ignition, and…

There is a very interesting thing happening in the "car knowledge space". At least for young people. Myself and a few of my friends drive exclusively Honda/Toyota and drive them to 200k and then sell them to people who know how to do their own car work. A few of my friends are from well off families and they buy cars brand new and drive them to 60-80k and then act like the car isnt reliable anymore for some reason de…

New buyers often have the ability to write off the purchase which gives them a substantial discount.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#593

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

It's also a financial literacy problem. Financing a rapidly depreciating asset like a car is a very poor choice, and maybe younger people are waking up to this. You're basically underwater as soon as you drive a new car off the lot. If you have to have a car, buy a used one for cash.

I don't understand why people are so against financing. Sure, buying a new car isn't wise, but even now with 5-6% interest rates you're likely still coming out ahead if you finance a car and invest the rest.

It's like a credit card. They are easily misused, but there's not really a downside if you use them responsibly.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#594

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

Not to mention that if you do decide on an old and affordable car, it's offset by the price of its constant repairs and the anxiety that it could break down again at any moment.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#595
post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

I had to spend a few months in Holland for work. We we left with the problem of what do do on the weekends. You can't rent bikes if you are not Dutch, and visiting the lovely villages and other places Holland is full of is a time consuming exercise in futility unless one has a car. A train is great for Rotterdam-Hague-Amsterdam, not so good for visiting the Bosch museum in 's-Hertogenbosch. Holland has a great road s…

I've rented bikes very easily as a UK tourist. All you need is cash in Euros or a credit card.

Disagree about parking, at least what I've seen in Amsterdam city area. You have to use an app and pay for parking. There are patrol cars that will dish out fines if you are caught. There are blue zones in suburbs which are free but it's mainly for visitors/residents.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that American anti-car rhetoric doesn't speak with one voice. There are people who know what they're talking about, who are mostly saying "If we follow some of the Dutch practices, we can get a city where people can get to a local destination by bike safely. But we should also take note that even in the Netherlands, the need to engineer roads for bike safety is something they continually forget…

I agree that it’s hard to represent groups accurately, but I don’t think your “person who knows what they’re talking about” falls reasonably within bounds of anyone’s “anti-car” definition. For one, it’s not actually an anti-car argument, it’s a pro-cycling argument and lots of Americans favor safer cycling without getting anywhere near anti-car. Moreover, every identifiably anti-car community I’m aware of (e.g., r/f…

I don't know of any such communities online, but in real world local politics the first example is more common. People who support things like bike lanes, bus lanes, and light rail don't describe themselves as "anti-car", but their opponents call them that among less polite names, so I'd argue it's the more mainstream definition of anti-car.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#597

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

Nailed it.

Will also add.

- Why buy a new car when one cannot afford a proper home to put it in? - Why buy a new car when one cannot be sure about their job security? - Why buy a new car when there's less of a need to be in an office every weekday?

But wait it gets better. Some car manufacturers have come up with the innovative idea to require the car's owner to pay monthly subscription to "unlock" all the features of the car they bought.

Yes, why indeed are young people losing interest in cars.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'll admit hadn't considered that factor, I guess I'll find out in a decade or so when my daughter reaches that age, although hopefully that mentality will have died out once that generation gets a decade of reality under their belt. That said I kinda get the social media obsession, that was college for me and I was all in on the facebook parasocial queues (not liking someone's post that they KNOW you saw was an…

> As you say, it used to be that person working the McDonalds drive through might be something big some day. Nowadays that's 100% assured to not be the case, McDonalds drive through is a dead-end job you do to stay alive until you can trade up to a different career path. Can you expand on how you see these two statements as different conceptually? At least for folks in my generation, I don't think anyone harbored del…

I guess I'm conflating two concepts, my overall point is that getting a job in high school used to be seen as "getting your foot in the door", one way or another. Like you said, at the very least it got you money/freedom to explore, and you had time to explore. You were seen as someone who was getting their start in the world.

Nowadays the options for standard middle-class success are a lot more constricted. There is much less "freedom" and "exploring" unless you're wealthy, working at McDonalds will just get you an ultimately meaningless amount of money and experience that no one values, while sucking up your time. Even when I was in high school there was no time for "exploration" outside of academics if you wanted a positive outcome. You were either on the AP/honors track and going to college to be a "success", or you had a job/took normal classes and either couldn't afford college or were just coasting into mediocrity. I imagine it's gotten even more stark since I graduated, given prevailing economic circumstances.

I'd say the desire to be an influencer/streamer is also partially the result of that. Sure statistically most influencers/streamers don't make much, but there's at least the potential of freedom/success that doesn't exist with a McDonalds job, directly or indirectly; and the barrier to entry is low. It would be like if everyone's parents bought them a guitar/drum set and there was a social hierarchy based on being a rock star.

If I can be so bold as to link it into larger trends, one thread I've noticed is that in previous generations' countercultures, whether it was the hippies in the 60s/70s or grungy Xers in the 90s, there was an underlying assumption that the American Dream was vanity. That you didn't need all of that stuff and could "drop out", calling someone a "sellout" was a serious insult. You could always find a way to "get by" even if you weren't living large. Because during those times where the income/cost of living disparity wasn't so large, you probably could. Don't worry about prosperity, go become an assistant manager at Staples and spend your time on what really matters! Nowadays economics don't support that, so we have "hustle culture", where you're expected to "grind", and that's the superficially "cool" thing to do. Even if you're just hocking bullshit, make that money! Given the limited options available to high school students, it follows that being an influence/streamer, something they can literally do on their phone, is the only universally attractive objective.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#599
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car…

> As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked... Do you feel the same way about your home? Your day's itinerary will inevitably have to see you return there, too. Too see the other side, it may be useful to think of a personal car as home-like transportation infrastructure and always using public transit…

> home-like transportation infrastructure

The only thing I can do in my car is sing as loudly as I like. Otherwise I am forced to focus on ensuring myself and others stay out of mortal danger, which requires a lot more energy than lounging in my home.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#600

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

I just went car shopping, and those claimed prices are definitely inflated. People that cannot "afford a car" typically just cannot afford the car they think they deserve. It's a tale as old as time.
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