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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#591

I have a VW Golf and it has what it calls "adaptive cruise control". What makes it different from my older (simple) cruise control is that it will slow down and speed up again as necessary without my intervention. For example, if I set the speed to 70 mph and it gets close to a car ahead that is only going 65 mph, it will slow down and maintain what the software believes is a safe distance. Similarly, if a car in an…

My Mazda has adaptive cruise control - it has absolutely revolutionised my highway driving. It is intuitive because the heads up display gives you a distance to the vehicle in front; and you can set the distance you want to maintain. It tracks your progress/distance so you can see when it will slow/maintain and it behaves gracefully if someone cuts in

I don't know how the Mazda one works, but for Volvo you actually get 1-pedal driving if you want. Set the speed a bit lower than your expected speed (for example in crowded areas), then accelerate as you wish. Once you take your foot off the gas, the car is set at a lower speed, so it brakes for you if needed.

Ta-da! 1 pedal driving :-)

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this particular edge-case, it's the user fault for using a technology not supposed to be used when towing.

Manufacturer could include a sensor in the towbar. Did the manufacturer think about this and include a warning? If not, how should the user know?

> If not, how should the user know?

The standard move is to put this in the user manual.

Especially for something as complex as towing, reading the manual should be mandatory.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#593

> if the Level 2 paradigm was flipped, where the driver was always in control, but the semi-automated driving system was doing the monitoring, and was ready to take over [...] but would be less sexy in that the act of driving wouldn’t feel any different I think this is the the most important point of the article and largely ignored here in the comments who seem to focus mostly on who was to blame for this specific ac…

> doing the monitoring, and was ready to take over

This isn't even uncommon. Almost every Honda sold for a while has been a L2 system that will take over in certain ways if the car believes a crash is imminent, such as a car suddenly breaking.

> but would be less sexy

It's so less sexy people don't know that millions of vehicles are sold this way...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#594

I'm trying to reason "why the Tesla did stop?", in the second video on TheIntercept website, I can notice a left exit before the point where the Tesla stopped. Something I noticed with Google maps ( I don't have a Tesla, and maybe the navigation system of the Tesla is similar ), is that sometimes thinks tunnels can access the road above them ( in a tunnel near my home Google maps always tells me "turn right" in the m…

I found it easier to understand your example by comparing to openstreetmap, which seems up to date at that location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/54.64443/25.05401

In this OpenStreetMap example, both crossing ways are separated by a `layer` tag. This means that https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/919604270/ has `layer-1`, essentially putting it underground, while https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/921763546/ has no such layer tag, making them clearly not connected.

Should Teslas autopilot get confused because of this that would be really bad.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#595
post #361
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that as an end user, there is basically no difference between autopilot and FSD if the FSD beta is enabled on the car. It's a technical detail that doesn't seem significant. If the end user said they were driving on FSD, it likely means they are enrolled in the FSD beta and were using autopilot - in the car there is no distinction between autopilot and FSD. They are the same thing in the car if the FSD be…

What's the difference if you have a Tesla that is FSD capable but it is disabled? I bought into FSD because I had the cash but disabled it.

FSD is basically navigation on city streets. If you disable FSD beta, then you have plain autopilot on city streets (TACC + steering to stay in your lane).

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#596
post #258

I think the insistence on having data for every possible situation for training purposes is indicative of the problem. Humans only require a small amount of training and can extrapolate this to many situations.

This is really very wrong. Human beings create exactly this kind of accident every day. There is absolutely nothing remotely"non-human" about cutting someone off and stopping in traffic.[1] Just go check /r/idiotsincars for an hour to see much, much worse. [1] In fact, this is so unlike FSD's behavior that I still think it's more likely that it will turn out not to have been in use at all. The only evidence at hand i…

The bar for FSD should not be /r/idiotsincars. What doesn't add up to me however, is the need to have training data for every possible situation that a vehicle could encounter (FSD should reason based on more fundamental axioms). Also, the "cameras only" argument makes sense only to a point. Yes, we drive largely by 400-800 THz photons. However, the eye has incredibly good anti-occluding abilities where a stationary camera can be occluded by a spec of dust.

In any case, I am not taking an anti-self-driving stance by any means - we'll get there eventually. Tesla is leading the way and taking all of the negative press.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, we’re talking about explaining away a Tesla failure here. Pedantic analysis of DMV regulations is absolutely essential. Clearly any dolt practicing defensive driving would anticipate the self driving car cutting him off and hard braking. Stories like this make people think that full self driving is actually a car the drives itself fully. The car is safer than any human and by critically thinking about this we a…

> Clearly any dolt practicing defensive driving would anticipate the self driving car cutting him off and hard braking. Not sure if you are being serious. How can you tell whether a car is driving autonomously? Expect it from any Tesla? I haven't consciously ever seen a car driving itself. And I like to think of myself being pretty defensive as a driver. I'm not even sure if the feature is available in Australia.

Of course I’m not being serious.

But if there was a video of a Tesla doing anything, the fandom of Tesla is such that defenders would appear.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If harsher punishments don’t deter intentional violent crime, why do people expect them to deter accidents?

Not the person you’re responding to, but typically this mindset is about punishment more than deterrence. It won’t reduce the incidence of bad outcomes, but some people feel better knowing that judicial vengeance will be meted out.

Fair enough, but do those people hold the same attitude about punishing violent criminals? Seems like there’s a lot of overlap between the “we shouldn’t punish violent offenders” and the “reckless drivers should be punished” people, but maybe I’m misreading the situation.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just further entrenching car dominance. Every mode of transport should be allowed to safely use the roads, and for what it's worth motorcycles are way better for the climate as a mode of individual transport because they weigh maybe 10% of your average modern car.

Motorcycles aren’t viable in many places due to weather, and they aren’t practical for most people (people with kids, pets, large items, etc to transport). I don’t think “everyone should be allowed to use the road safely” is a statement anyone disagrees with, but the laws of physics make this very difficult to implement in any practical way. Pretty sure that even in Europe, cycling and motorcycling are far more dange…

> I don’t think “everyone should be allowed to use the road safely” is a statement anyone disagrees with, but the laws of physics make this very difficult to implement in any practical way. Pretty sure that even in Europe, cycling and motorcycling are far more dangerous than driving.

Oh, of course we can practically implement road safety for everyone:

- limit inner-city speeds outside of major influx roads to 30 km/h

- build dedicated bicycle and bus lanes in cities

- build dedicated pedestrian lanes (not an issue in urban Europe, a bit of an issue in rural areas though)

- enforce speeding and distance-keeping regulations

- make sure the quality of the roads and pedestrian ways is acceptable (i.e. no potholes, even surface) to minimize accident risk

- keep heavy haul traffic on highways wherever possible, prevent toll evasion

- build out public transport to reduce the amount of individual traffic

- provide elderly citizens with taxi vouchers or other forms that ensure their mobility without having them drive themselves

- get old vehicles outside of historical preservation interests off the road to increase the amount of cars with up-to-date safety features

- enforce regular technical check-ups (Germany, for example, requires one every two years) so that vehicles in dangerous condition get taken off the road and owners of vehicles in barely-roadworthy condition also get the hint

Countries that prioritise safe infrastructure for bicyclists like the Netherlands fare significantly better in road accident statistics [1] over countries that just say "fuck it, cars first" like the US.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motorcycles aren’t viable in many places due to weather, and they aren’t practical for most people (people with kids, pets, large items, etc to transport). I don’t think “everyone should be allowed to use the road safely” is a statement anyone disagrees with, but the laws of physics make this very difficult to implement in any practical way. Pretty sure that even in Europe, cycling and motorcycling are far more dange…

> I don’t think “everyone should be allowed to use the road safely” is a statement anyone disagrees with, but the laws of physics make this very difficult to implement in any practical way. Pretty sure that even in Europe, cycling and motorcycling are far more dangerous than driving. Oh, of course we can practically implement road safety for everyone: - limit inner-city speeds outside of major influx roads to 30 km/h…

Those things improve safety, and we should certainly do them, but that’s likely not enough to bring all modes of transit into parity with regard to safety.
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