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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom , that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term. Could you explain more? From what I can tell, there is no inherent separation between freedom and debauchery aside from someone's judgement about whether particular choices where good for the person wh…

I enjoy some debauchery as much as or more than the next guy, but clearly the difference between freedom and debauchery is that people don't automatically go for debauchery just because they can, because we still have societal norms that most people follow most of the time. But we're free because we get to make that choice for ourselves.

Quite frankly, you're assuming facts not in evidence. An awful lot of people will go full debauchery; not everyone, but enough to be a problem.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#592
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

I personally believe that this is a great example of a moral panic. There isn't much of a there, there. If you look closely.

For example, let's look at the Tide Pod incident, how many teens in total ate tide pods?

86.

A global moral panic was launched over 86 teenagers doing a very stupid thing as teenagers are wont to do.

> It’s true that since the Tide Pod Challenge began, the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPC) has received 86 reports of teenagers intentionally ingesting laundry detergent. Yet at the end of last year, the AAPC reported that over 10,500 children under the age of five were exposed to laundry pods in 2017 (for example ingesting, inhaling, or absorbing the detergent). If we are going to have a mass panic about poisonings, ten thousand children are clearly in greater danger than less than a hundred teens. So why was it that only the Tide Pod Challenge that made pearl-clutching headlines across the globe?

https://archive.ph/ACiFD

The actual threat is accidental ingestion or inhalation by little children and elderly adults with dementia. They form the tens of thousands of cases that end up at poison control centres. But there's no moral panic around that, because "Elderly lady with dementia who lives alone accidentally ate a tide pod and then ended up in the ER" is less of a salacious story than "Teen eats tide pod for tiktok challenge"

Let's examine this 'Tourettes-like' story,

> Over the past 2 years, a remarkably high number of young patients have been referred to our specialized Tourette outpatient clinic presenting with symptoms closely resembling the ones Jan Zimmermann shows in his videos

What's a remarkably high number? As far as I can tell, this Op-Ed doesn't specify it. The author has only examined one patient that he classifies with this diagnosis. Ever.

Also interestingly enough, in most of the articles that talk about this subject, guess whose name repeatedly pops up? The same patient named in this Op-Ed.

Jan Zimmerman.

You can see the search for yourself here, https://www.google.com/search?q=Jan+Zimmerman+internet+viral...

We are told that there are "hundreds" of such patients, but we're never given an actual number, citation, or source.

If you try to track the source down, you find pieces like these, here's the "concrete" evidence that's offered,

First the background rate,

> The new surge of referrals consists of adolescent girls with sudden onset of motor and phonic tics of a complex and bizarre nature. In London, UK specialist tic clinics at each of the two children’s hospitals, each centre received four to six referrals per year (out of a total of approximately 200 in 2019/2020), which were acute onset tics in teenage girls

Then the "surge"

> In the last 3 months (end of 2020–January 2021), both centres have been receiving three to four referrals per week of this nature which, if it continues, would amount to 150–200 cases per year and effectively double the referral rate.

4 * 12 = 48. There are two centers so 96.

And this is during the onset of the pandemic, where global quarantines produced a constellation of anxiety in people of all age groups around the world.

This entire moral panic has been driven by referrals, not diagnoses, not confirmations but referrals from primary care physicians during one of the most stressful events of the past few decades (for ordinary people). No evidence has been presented if any or all of these cases are related to social media use or not.

The paper goes into this aspect and theorizes that this is an acute stress response,

> It is hypothesised that this unusual presentation is related to lockdown, change in usual structure and routine, social media related events/bullying and pandemic-related stress in vulnerable adolescents. Stress may be unmasking a tic predisposition in some, while in others compounding existing vulnerability to anxiety, for example, underlying neurodevelopmental or emotional difficulties to the point of becoming overwhelming.

https://adc.bmj.com/content/106/5/420

No specific numbers are provided anywhere w.r.t. how many people were influenced by social media or not, v. how many were patients that were predisposed to such a response that then presented with it in response to a hyper-stressful event.

So no, there is no epidemic of people watching tik toks and running around and changing their gender or becoming tourette-like.

96 possible, undiagnosed referrals does not a pandemic make.

This is just as silly as the moral panic over D&D back in the 80s. It's just updated for modern times.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#593
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

> Imagine being a youngster right now. Okay. > You do as your peers do, you live online. Where insanity is your mainstream cultural input. Reductionist, but I follow. What is insanity, and who defines it? Prior to the modern day, homosexuality was insanity or illness. > Where mental illness, a very serious issue, is seemingly rewarded for oppression points. Outside of some very extreme circles, nobody is actually doi…

> Outside, in the real world — most people are reasonable and understanding

I think OP is expressing concern that maybe young people aren't living there as much as you'd hope.

Most of these issues, and the extent to which they are issues, are in the eye of the beholder.

> Oh, and monocultures aren’t great.

Does being terminally online contribute more or less to this? I'm still not sure, but leaning towards more. People always parroted others, but now with social reach being so concentrated, it seems like everyone parrots from a smaller pool. The consequence/reward for expression are much more well defined in the online world as well.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#594
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

I know it doesn't feel that way right now, but there is probably no time in history where racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, religious hatred, slavery, etc. were less normalized than right now.

These things are sadly all too common, there's lots of work to do, and we must not be complacent about past successes.

But when I was a kid, homosexuality was illegal. Twenty years ago gay fear and stupid women were typical jokes on most sitcoms. Some of our grandmothers could not vote. Swimming pools and schools - schools! - were racially segregated within a lifetime.

Contrary to your post, we have been gradually escaping from the extreme crazy bad ideas. Let's keep it up.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#595
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

I know it doesn't feel that way right now, but there is probably no time in history where racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, religious hatred, slavery, etc. were less normalized than right now. These things are sadly all too common, there's lots of work to do, and we must not be complacent about past successes. But when I was a kid, homosexuality was illegal. Twenty years ago gay fear and stupid women were typical…

You're looking at a tiny elite slice of the modern West (I mean, sitcoms? Seriously?) and taking it as representative of the whole world. There's probably a whole lot more homophobia, misogyny and religious hatred now in some highly religious countries than there was 25 years ago or so. And the Internet is even less representative.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoy some debauchery as much as or more than the next guy, but clearly the difference between freedom and debauchery is that people don't automatically go for debauchery just because they can, because we still have societal norms that most people follow most of the time. But we're free because we get to make that choice for ourselves.

Quite frankly, you're assuming facts not in evidence. An awful lot of people will go full debauchery; not everyone, but enough to be a problem.

"People don't automatically go for debauchery because they can" and "no people go for debauchery" are not the same statement. You're constructing a strawman.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#597
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

> one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird

Except for the ones that were widely believed and accepted, of course. Or are you excluding those via a somewhat circular definition of "extreme," "unhinged," etc.?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some degree Chesterton's fence applies here: if you don't know why a fence was put up, don't demolish it until you find out. Many taboos and instincts have their roots in completely outdated utility - racism and sexism both used to serve evolutionary purposes, but stuck around LONG after they became useless. Other taboos and traditions are still useful for society today, but are somewhat under attack - like the ta…

I'm quite sceptical of these studies. I don't see how you control for the fact that couples who stay together are happier on average. That's why they're still together(at least some of the time), whereas divorcees are by definition not happy together. To have a proper comparison you need to compare divorced parents to married, but miserable parents. Growing up with the latter can be just as miserable or possibly even…

You don't need to control for that. We're looking at total outcomes, not individual points; it doesn't matter how it reaches the effect.

Here's a proposition: Learning to make compromises and achieve partnership with your partner and growing into it is the behavior most associated with happiness of couples. Having removed the obvious necessity of it, we've created a society with much more focus on individual wants and needs that gains less from cooperation, resulting in lower average outcomes.

Absolutely, the stigma on divorce was once too high, resulting in people staying in abusive relationships too long. But people still stay in abusive relationships. We can recognize that committed partnerships are healthy and encourage them without saying that any one individual is at fault if a relationship didn't work out.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#600
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debunked by whom? Happy to read a paper or two. I don't think at all that LGBTQ people "infect" people - that is your choice of words, not mine. But it seems strange to think that tourettes, anorexia, self-harming and even suicide can be socially transmitted but for this one specific condition (for which there is no medical test) it's impossible and has never happened.

I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way. Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them…

Can confirm - ContraPoints and Philosophy Tube both are excellent resources on the topic, who discuss at length their motivations and experiences.

They're also very entertaining to watch, and extremely well read, particularly in Psychology and Philosophy. 2 of the more educational YT channels, even if you subtract all their material dealing with LGBTQ+ issues.

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