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Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

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Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#591

Post by sammalloy »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #462
sammalloy wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re talking about the difference between commercial and commuter use. We both know that they are not the same at all, and have different manufacturing environments, parts, builds, and specs. Clearly, this discussion is not about commercial vehicles. Go look at the list of most reliable cars. Toyota and Honda are always listed as number one and two. Ford isn’t ever discussed as "reliable". I think this goes way bey…

Oh FFS. Fine, if the fanboys demand it I'll do a personal use comparison. What do you do in your Accord? You commute in it, or something along those lines, and that's probably about it. How much back seat wear is it getting? You got kids fighting back there? Do you stick your new dryer on the roof or do you pay the $20 for delivery? Your peers probably answer those questions about the same way. Meanwhile, several tax…

You just did it again, for a second time. All the benefits you describe in the specific models come from Canadian manufacturing, which gives it a higher reliability rating than its US produced counterparts.

> You don't think Ford, or GM, or whoever, makes reliable models for the same reason you'd never consider buying a house anywhere other than a good school district. It's a self-reinforcing expectation foisted upon you by the kind of people you surround yourself with.

Completely wrong and incorrect. I’ve owned and driven Ford. They were not reliable and one model I had was officially recalled 17 times, but had numerous outstanding issues that were never recalled for those problems. Toyota and Honda owners don’t have these kind of concerns.

I will freely admit that Canada makes more reliable Fords (and GM) than the US, and the reliability indices reflect that fact. Back in the day, I knew many people who would only buy Fords and GMs made in Canada for this reason.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#592

Post by sammalloy »

bluGill wrote: post #554
f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumer Reports testing consistently rate Asian car brands above American brands in terms of reliability. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

They have a long history of this, even when the "American" car is the same as the Asian car except for the name plate. The big brands often fill gaps in their lineup with a car from a smaller Asian company. Other than the name it is the same car built on the same assembly line. There cannot be a difference, yet Consumer reports will rate the American car lower.

It’s possible. This reminds me of the partnership between GM and Suzuki.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#593

Post by sammalloy »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #463
yourapostasy wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I was not expecting Ford transit vans to be above-average reliable, but a bit of searching around shows that indeed they are. Not as reliable as a Mercedes Sprinter, but I wonder if the operating costs are lower over the years (they cost roughly the same, which also surprised me) than the Mercedes.

I think that's just a reflection of how terrible the Euro-vans are in general. in North America they're not held in high regard by anyone other than the highfalutin taxi/airport shuttle/mobility van fleets that buy new and depreciate over the warranty period. The Transit and the Sprinter (the latter of which has really gone down the tubes since it's '00s peak) might be "good" but that's like being MVP in a junior var…

> I think that's just a reflection of how terrible the Euro-vans are in general. in North America they're not held in high regard by anyone other than the highfalutin taxi/airport shuttle/mobility van fleets that buy new and depreciate over the warranty period.

I’m sorry, but this statement is so utterly and totally opposed to the facts, that I’m beginning to think you’re doing PR for Ford. The demand for Euro-Vans in North America is so high, there’s a 1-2 year waiting list. It’s literally the most wanted vehicle in its class.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#594

Post by ThunderSizzle »

ceejayoz wrote: post #508
ThunderSizzle wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles. I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k. Of course, the part no one talks about: 1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range? 2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

> How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range? Stopping for a meal, bathroom, and stretch break every 300 miles or so? > Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when? I'd typically buy a new ICE car before the 400k kilometers cited, as repair costs accelerate, so this isn't really a significant difference.

I can do 900 miles in about 12 hours, at my max.

With a 300 mile range, I'd need at least 2 stops that are 4-6 hours, unless if I find a super rapid charger. That turns a sucky 12 hour day with 1-2 hours of stops into a 16 hour trip with probably 1-2 hours of additional stops still.

So now I need to power through or get a hotel.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#595

Post by op00to »

tremon wrote: post #507
op00to wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- educate the consumer The last two cars I bought the salesperson knew nothing about the cars. People can learn much more about cars by going to a web site than talking to a sales person. - DMV Paperwork Dealerships charge consumers for the privilege of submitting DMV paperwork. This could all be handled online. Don’t understand the benefit. - service your vehicle I go to independent mechanics. They service my vehicl…

Dealerships have got to go. They’re a huge waste of time space and money I see value in having a local showroom where prospective buyers can test-drive several models to evaluate their driving experience. I don't think I'd ever buy a car without being able to sit in it beforehand.

agree on needing to sit in a car first, though I could do without the middleman. i'm kidding myself if I think the savings will get passed on to me!

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#596

Post by yourapostasy »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #463
yourapostasy wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I was not expecting Ford transit vans to be above-average reliable, but a bit of searching around shows that indeed they are. Not as reliable as a Mercedes Sprinter, but I wonder if the operating costs are lower over the years (they cost roughly the same, which also surprised me) than the Mercedes.

I think that's just a reflection of how terrible the Euro-vans are in general. in North America they're not held in high regard by anyone other than the highfalutin taxi/airport shuttle/mobility van fleets that buy new and depreciate over the warranty period. The Transit and the Sprinter (the latter of which has really gone down the tubes since it's '00s peak) might be "good" but that's like being MVP in a junior var…

Sigh. This is why we can't have good things. Thank you for saving me some research time on the heads up of the overall Mercedes quality.

It gels with my experience with Mercedes sedans. Until I got to the very top of the line S-series like the 5xx/6xx, the owner experience on recent models was still a step down from what it was like leading up to 2000, mostly with fiddly bit details and robustness/conscientiousness overlooked in those details, and this quality corruption seems to have infected the other product offerings from your description. The core vehicle itself was fine, but I'm not paying the Mercedes premium just to overlook those details.

Maybe I'll stick with my original plan of getting a Toyota Hi-Lux and convert + tow what I want instead of lumping it into an all-in-one large commercial/trade van.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#597

Post by Thorrez »

bluGill wrote: post #533
Thorrez wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have data on that? I thought cars lose a lot of their value as soon as they drive off the lot. And how long of leases are you talking about?

Finance companies have a good idea of what a car will be worth after you are done with it. That is why they limit miles: they know the loss of value from miles and don't want to know lose money. Their goal is when the lease ends and you turn the car in the dealer pays the entire remaining balance and sells it as a used car. Dealers make more money from selling used cars than new (everyone knows what they pay for cars…

How does sales tax fit in? If you buy the car, you have to pay sales tax on the whole thing right? I don't think that happens on a lease. And when you sell it, that buyer has to pay sales tax too right? And if that buyer is a dealer, then the next real customer has to pay sales tax again right? So sales tax reduces the liquidity and efficiency of selling cars, with no negative effect on leasing. This gets worse and worse the shorter the period of time. skolos owned 6 Teslas in several years, so this would be a big factor.

If you live in a state with no sales tax, then you avoid this problem.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#598

Post by Thorrez »

skolos wrote: post #552
Thorrez wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have data on that? I thought cars lose a lot of their value as soon as they drive off the lot. And how long of leases are you talking about?

Last two years used Tesla prices were higher than new ones. You need to wait up to a year to get new Tesla though. So you could actually make some money while driving newest versions of cars.

I guess it makes sense for cars that there's a shortage of but you're still able to get. In a normal market I don't think it makes sense.

Still, it probably would have been more profitable to keep driving just 1 Tesla, and sell the other Teslas as essentially new as soon as you got them.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#599

Post by jjav »

stutsmansoft wrote: post #502
spikels wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue). There was speculation at the time that this was in part free itself of the dealership sales model. The dealers would keep the dying ICE business while the fast growing EV business would start with clean slate. Farley was quoted describing the EV sales model as: > "It's going to be much more efficie…

The dealers brought it on themselves...many of them actively disincentivize EV purchases when you try to buy one. Why? They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

> They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

In the past decade we've had one new ICE car and two new EV cars.

The ICE car has been in the dealer once for a couple hours to replace rear hatch support struts (nothing to do with the engine, so could happen to any EV that has a hatch).

The EV cars have spent many weeks in the dealer for repairs and waiting for parts. Also issues unrelated to the engine, this was for door lock problems and window regulator problems.

In theory the EV motor is simpler than the ICE engine. But in practice, the ICE engines are bulletproof and almost never have problems. In 36 years of owning cars, I've never had a car in a shop (or dealer) for engine issues. It's always electrical system, electronics, seats, windows, shocks, etc. Components that both ICE and EV cars share.

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