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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#591

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From the OC: "They said that Apple's reasons for implementing the policy don't stand up, and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce." I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Anywho, u/EricE isn't agreeing or disagreeing. They're just advising that people can just state their preference plainly, no…

> I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. So do you plan to learn what it means, or do you believe that language should remain exactly as it was at some arbitrary point in the past?

I hadn't. But it's a fair ask.

Sadly, this group of authors didn't know the meaning either. Typical.

As a rule, I avoid using terms I can't define. If you know any of the authors, please pass that tip along. Thanks.

> ...or do you believe that language should remain exactly...

Wut?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I, for one, have no idea what neuro-normative means. Having no psychological/developmental conditionals recognized by the DSM

Thats quite a privileged statement. Psychology applies cultural and personal norms to fit people into little boxes.

Yup. There's a term for that: neuro-normative.

More seriously...

I'm totally on board with navel gazing. But I don't see how (mis)using such terms helps this letter's authors make the case for having the individual choice to work remotely.

So performative.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#593
post #584

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>What works for you may not be what works for everybody, and that's the point. Instead of making it personal, lets make it general. According to you how many people have a problem working in the office for the reasons you listed?

What difference does it make whether their reasons are the same as mine or different from them?

You're right it wouldn't matter. I think I had a brain fart here. What I wanted to say was the thing with 'everybody has a point of view' is that not all points of view are equally represented in the population. I'm not going to dismiss the viewpoint of the people who do like coming in to work, if one person hates it. It would be nice to accommodate everyone's individual preferences in every situation, but realistically you can't make everyone happy if they're outside of whatever standard deviation a workplace can manage.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#594

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> It's entirely a byproduct of a lack of trust in management intentions. Absolutely true. Employees do not trust management for good reasons, because they have experience with management not being open and honest with them (speaking generally here, of course there are exceptions). Management's goals are often counter to those of the employees. Whereas workers want good pay, flexibility, work/life balance, and so on.…

Spoken like someone that's never been a manager.

What they are describing is literally the objective objectives of a company's management. It's not some fluffy 'cultural values' thing that changes based on what the company's philosophy is. I've held exec positions at startups and ... well, I don't need to have held those positions to tell you this. (These authority contests are so frustratingly silly. We're not 5 year olds.)

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#595

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If your hybrid is mandatory then you can expect to be back to full time 5 days in a years time approx.

As a manager, these types of comments and sentiments are so incredibly frustrating for me. This is pure supposition based on no evidence. It's entirely a byproduct of a lack of trust in management intentions. Taking my company as an example, while the executive team has been ambiguous, I know that a full return to 5 days of asses in seats is not being contemplated at all , not the least of which because we don't want…

Without transparency and some level of clarity, you cannot expect trust from others and the cynics will remain cynical.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#596

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Because if the CEO of a trillion dollar company wants people in the office, it's very likely that you will convince them otherwise. Tim Cook has tremendous influence over his company, these employees do not. Maybe if they had a union there would be some bargaining power but as it stands they can't do anything outside of leaving. Happy to be proven wrong here, but labor doesn't have much power in the US; especially wh…

I can guarantee you that “Nothing can ever be better, so why try?” will definitely not work to change policies. But it would make one a stereotypical Democratic senator.

Yes, trying means finding another job,

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#597
post #145

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The problem is, for many people and jobs that heuristic is accurate. I’ve heard of countless examples of people spending their time gaming at home instead of working. Humans need extrinsic motivation. Outside of overheated labour markets, this is going to be a real problem. Expect intrusive monitoring to become widespread if wfh persists.

So has no work happened at Apple the last 2+ years? If a company can't evaluate an employee's performance while they are out of sight, that sounds like a management problem.

I completely agree, specifically a middle management problem that bubbles up.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#598
post #439

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Frankly neither do most old people- the number of older folks who still think you can show up to a business with a resume and get a job at the start of your career are out of their mind. I've been working in this industry for 17 years now, and only five of that was in an office. I make an obscene amount of money, so it's not like this has harmed me. The idea that the kids need to suffer through an office so they know…

Working remotely is career limiting. Period. I’m saying that as a remote worker. I would not recommend that you get into full time remote work until you’ve decided you are OK with no significant career advancement.

This is just wrong- it is completely and utterly wrong. "No significant career advancement" yet my career has progressed pretty damn well, as have my colleagues.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#599
post #53

People want to have their cake and eat it too. Silicon Valley companies pay very well because cost of living is very high in the area and they _need_ to pay well to attract talent in that area. If remote work becomes the norm, pay will start to even out across the country. If you live in a place that didn't pay well before, you'll be better off, but if you live in a high cost of work area, you'll probably be worse of…

They pay well because demand for engineers is high. Cost of living is high because engineers have bought all the stock in the area. You've got the order backwards.

They are already starting adjust salaries for cost of living in the zip codes where remote workers live. They still pay more because the field is competitive, but companies (including Facebook and Google) aren’t paying Palo Alto salaries to remote workers in low cost of living areas.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if commuting time was fully paid work hours, then companies would quickly agree that minor optimizations like this aren't worth it.

If you think active, in-person collaboration is a "minor optimization" than it doesn't feel like you're starting from a neutral, open position on this issue.

It seems like someone could start at a neutral, open position and reasonably arrive at that conclusion. Some users commented upthread that IRL whiteboarding is good but infrequent. This matches my experience. I think real productive IRL knowledge transfer or collaboration has been a once-a-month thing for most of my career, and the downsides of doing it in some sort of virtual environment seem smaller than the downsides of spending 1-2 hours per day for everyone.

As an aside, I sort of wonder why the best WoW guilds are fully remote, if in-person collaboration is such an advantage. I spent some time as an IC in one of the best guilds in the world, and being remote didn't seem like such a big deal. Later I spent some time in a leadership position in a much less serious guild (basically as bad as a guild could be and still clear the hardest content in the game) and if you told me I could have everyone in my team spend many hours per week in cars so that we could all hang out together in real life or spend that time learning about how the best players of their classes deal with upcoming encounters, it seems like it would be an easy choice. One might reasonably respond "Well, software is not like world of warcraft! Software is a lot more collaborative!" but in general the level of planning and ad-hoc coordination that goes into boss kills is unrivaled in software outside of companies like Pivotal Labs that spend an entire day on planning each week, communicate liberally throughout the day, and don't seem to end up with substantially more output than other companies as a result. I sort of wonder if this attitude is a cultural accident where much of the discipline of software engineering is made up of people who think that it's bad for people to take time to develop deep expertise in a subject area or people who have allocated so many people to a project that there isn't enough independent-ish work to go around.

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