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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#591

Post by tomatowurst »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #583
tomatowurst wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

I’d say you’ve got more straw men in that loaded question than farmers have in their field. You’re taking poorly summarized opinions and pretending that combination of opinions are held by a group of significant size.

I don't think so ivy league discrimination of asian american applicants despite high standardized test scores is very much a published statistic one that is often met with emotional fervor by groups that seek to continue it.

Just my observation as an outsider looking into America. Often sensitive debates that don't follow a certain mainstream narrative are brushed off as strawman or whataboutism.

I'm just seeing this from an objective data driven view and puzzled why ppl would react so harshly.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#592

Post by aj7 »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #533
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #191

Definitely for the best. Standardized testing was pretty much the only reason I and many other working class folks I know could get into good schools -- I was never going to do a million side activities, and my summers were spent working, not building my academic resume. Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college, even prestigious ones, at all given how unnecessary they are for making people into…

>Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college, even prestigious ones, at all given how unnecessary they are for making people into productive and happy human beings. This change is significant but affects less than one percent of the population each year.. I'm ambivalent because I sympathize with both sides of the equation. One one hand, I have the hindsight now that I didn't at 18 to realize that…

Yes, prestigious schools open a huge number of doors. But more importantly, they teach elite mannerisms, standards and beliefs, and prejudices. If you are not a true genius (true geniuses can always make their way, but they are rare, even at MIT et al), this knowledge is invaluable and irreplaceable.

I’ll give you an example from my own career. I went to MIT/Berkeley, SB/PhD. But I practically washed out of grad school, not due to lack of ability, but because I hated it. What I did like was making things and explaining things, and had a successful career in the more business aspects of science where successful scientists were the customers and decision makers. I understood, in a fundamental way, how these people thought and what they expected. This was invaluable, and was conveyed, in an irreplaceablely concentrated way, by my being a 30th percentile student in a 95th percentile university.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#593

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

sparrc wrote: post #551
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything.

It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#594

Post by tomatowurst »

freedomben wrote: post #590
tomatowurst wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

I think your question would have been a lot better if it was just: > What do you think about the argument that standardized tests are systemically racist?

how is it different? there are people that make that exact argument, after all it isn't some tabloid paper claiming it as such.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#595

Post by lliamander »

com2kid wrote: post #582
lliamander wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing admission tests was a huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class. I agree, but arguably the benefits of the SAT with regard to class mobility is less than it was when it was introduced. The heritability of IQ, combined with assortative mating, means that increasingly class divides are forming around differences in IQ. I think many people are rightly concerned that this will eventually…

> The heritability of IQ, For better or for worse, regression to the mean is a thing.

That's a fair point.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#596

Post by ralmidani »

I would like to know how much of an “improvement” in outcomes these tests bring.

From another article linked in the one from this discussion:

“In short: Our research has shown that, in most cases, we cannot reliably predict students will do well at MIT unless we consider standardized test results alongside grades, coursework, and other factors. These findings are statistically robust and stable over time, and hold when you control for socioeconomic factors and look across demographic groups. And the math component of the testing turns out to be most important.”

There seems to be a lot of hand-waving in that quote.

If the improvement is only marginal, we really need to ask, as a society, if the improvement is worth all the money, potential for cheating, angst, and outright conflict that come with maintaining these tests.

If we want better talent, we can invest more money and energy into building better schools and paying better salaries to teachers. If we want more diversity, we can target vulnerable communities specifically.

The test prep industry is milking families that care about (and might even be obsessed with) education. It encourages folks to think of the whole system as a rat race, and leads to selfishness and hoarding of knowledge.

If we did away with standardized testing and spent more money on schools and teachers, we could cultivate a perception of education as a public good. It would be less about who has more resources and more about raising the tide and giving more people a fair shot.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#597

Post by lr4444lr »

lightup wrote: post #553

My son found out 2 days ago he didn't get accepted to his in-state land grant public university. The University of Minnesota. This was his fall back plan. Now he's screwed and may not be able to start college in fall. His sins: - a 35 ACT score (legit with no studying or ACT prep classes) - a 3.8 weighted GPA (because he took multiple AP classes and actually was in college for his junior and senior years through Minn…

Wait, your state 529 plans penalize you for applying the funds to out of state schools? That sounds like a highly unusual setup. Not all states do this.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#598

Post by linksnapzz »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593
sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

If you recast your civilization as simply the sum total of the economic activity generated by fungible worker-units, that's the sort of thing you get. A giant. somewhat dilapidated luxury shopping mall with a military attached.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#599

Post by whynotminot »

lliamander wrote: post #464
whynotminot wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was asking more about class divides becoming IQ based. Do you have a citation for that.

That's the whole thesis of The Bell Curve and also Coming Apart , both works by Charles Murray. There's plenty of citations in those works as well. Edit: but beyond that, IQ-based class divides seems like a rather logical consequence of the following: 1. The heritability of IQ 2. Assortative mating 3. IQ being a significant determining factor of success in a given society

Maybe. I'm just more than a little skeptical given that GP has a scant post history, and spends his other posts railing on about CRT being marxism.

There's a lot of people pedaling this kind of IQ stuff to justify blatant racism, so you'll forgive me for wanting to see the data and not just letting statements like that fly by unchallenged.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#600

Post by xeromal »

BHSPitMonkey wrote: post #479
rayiner wrote: post #447

I don't think people appreciate the radical nature of the attacks on standardized testing. Standardized tests have been critical to higher education and the professions for almost a century. Virtually everyone in an elite academic, government, scientific, legal, medical, or financial role attained that role based, in part, on the SAT and similar exams like the LSAT or MCAT. Not only them, but everyone who taught and…

> If the SAT is not predictive, as some claim, we've been selecting our elites and professionals the wrong way for three generations. Yes, and? The easiest way to understand the shortcomings of these tests (at least their older versions) is to realize that students who use paid SAT/ACT-prep materials and services get higher scores than students who don't. Yes, there are confounding factors, but this fact alone is fai…

What do you think is the better way to test students for a specific univeristy?
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