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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

cushychicken.github.io

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#591

Post by mcv »

jack_riminton wrote: post #511
mcv wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical people are responsible for building and maintaining all the systems that handle the stuff that the business want done. And I also told business people what they should be doing. Seeing banks as a non-tech industry is a mistake in my opinion, and many banks do seem to agree that they should be a tech company. Many are active in tech communities, organise tech related events, and really seem to care about tec…

Having worked in a fintech D2C app, the distinction I drew was that there were 2 'products' - the financial product i.e getting 4% return on your money - the digital product i.e the app The 1st was the real product, the 2nd the nice-to-have Obviously core tech in banking is infinitely more critical than an app but the point is the same; the tech in banks, unless its 'quant', HFT or ML is not the money maker and there…

The app that people use to access their money is absolutely core tech. If the payment infrastructure goes down (or worse: is buggy), that's a massive problem. Banks that don't consider this core aren't keeping up.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#592

Post by democracy »

ihateolives wrote: post #358
techsupporter wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cool stuff don’t pay bills. I'm very much on board with this. I put stability and money on about the same pedestal and is why I still work where I do after many years for a salary that is fantastic for 90% of the country but is "merely average" for Seattle. Working for a rock solid medium-sized that's been in existence for a hundred years and funded by a stable endowment and a pile of public service contracts and h…

> a stable endowment and a pile of public service contracts and has never had a layoff is more interesting to me than knowing that the odds of me still having a job in the 2030s, if I still want it, is well above 90% How do you know you're still around by 2030? I've had 3 people from my close circle die off in the past 6 months. One of them my age, left behind a spouse and two kids. That really changed my perspective…

So keep the paycheck and try to take it easy - like the Office Space guy. You still can deliver value to the company if you work 1-2 hours a day (remotely, of course)

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#593

Post by quickthrower2 »

didip wrote: post #87

The article is concise but missing a lot of real-life examples: * The highest paying software companies employ LeetCode style interview. That is off-putting to a lot of people even though the money would be super sweet to have. * Some wannabe startups also employ LeetCode style interview even though they don't pay anywhere near FAANG/Unicorns. * You know what's worst than LeetCode style interview? LeetCode style inte…

Looking at it internationally, I could earn 3x by FAANGing in the US, but I would be on a sponsored visa and massively disrupt my life if fired. The risk factors put me off.

Money should be a big factor. Imagine a job where year 1 you work and year 2,3 you get to do whatever you like and own 100% of the equity. That is what 3x TC basically could mean.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#594

Post by rovek »

ttiurani wrote: post #409

I'm sure this article is on point, and the comments here seem to confirm it. But to me it's just wild that working to bring about a net positive impact to the world isn't mentioned anywhere. And no: that's not even remotely the same as "cool stuff". Making a rocket taxi for the super rich or tunnel for SOVs is not it. We are on the brink of a global environmental collapse, and a lot of the blame is on the "cool stuff…

I think it would be charitable to assume the author meant "fulfilling" by "cool stuff". I am looking for a company right now that fits into either "cool stuff" or "positive impact" but the latter is FAR more difficult to find. There are plenty of "positive impact" SaaS companies around pedalling meaningless Corporate Social Responsibility platforms (what even is a tool that legitimately helps with this?), but nobody using software to make a meaningful impact on the world - possibly because it's rarely a software problem.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#595

Post by buran77 »

glitchalumni wrote: post #432
pjmlp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Also all inclusive contracts are quite common or some legal workarounds with payed overtime after x amount of hours (where x amount would be workin…

A salary is like RAM, you only notice if it's too little. Once you reach this comfort level where you can cover your expenses and feed your lifestyle without having to think too much about it, getting some extra will make far less impact than the number might suggest. Not having enough money is like drowning and you'd do anything for a breath of air. Having just enough to live comfortably is like getting to the edge of the beach. Moving further up the beach a bit is nice but you certainly won't be willing to break your back to get there.

It's not only diminishing returns at work but simply crossing that comfort threshold severely drops the incentives from "survival mode" to "eh... yeah... maybe".

And sure, if you like living just above your means you'll always be in "survival mode". Always the better car, the better house, the better vacation, they need to be financed and every little bit will count. I think that's not where most people are.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#596

Post by quickthrower2 »

voakbasda wrote: post #234
didip wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I would go as far as saying that LeetCode interview is biased against older engineers with families. Especially young families.

What?! Age discrimination in the software industry??? Say it isn’t so!!! Seriously though, your insight is astonishingly spot on: LeetCode is a perfectly legal means of practicing age/lifestyle discrimination. Yet another innovative Silicon Valley dark pattern. Why is this the first I’m hearing it characterized this way?

It’s possible for already wealthy people though. Poor people need $x per month. A bit more wealth and cashflow is not an issue and so you can look at $x per decade. In that scenario taking a gap year to bash leetcode and interviews is perfectly rational. Its a 10% tax at worst.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#597

Post by michaelt »

mcv wrote: post #455
0xfaded wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in startup land over in SF, so my salary topped out lower at 160k USD but with ~2% equity. I was in a partnership in a small plane, and one of the guys was "in his 20's making $500k+" at google as an L6 plus retention bonus. Several engineers in my circle (early 30's) are on $500k+. Currently I'm living in Europe but leaving back to SF. I tell people all the time about salaries in the US and point them to level…

I think the big question is: can you reach these salaries on a normal work week, or does this require sacrificing your personal life?

For some jobs, higher salaries correlate with worse working conditions. The warehouse worker who moves from day shift to night shift, or the oil worker who moves from onshore to oil rig work, can demand a higher salary.

But more broadly, higher salaries correlate with better working conditions. That warehouse worker will have targets to hit every single shift, get in trouble for being five minutes late, will get written up for taking sick leave without a doctor's note, and will have to pay for their own food and drinks.

On the other hand, most jobs that pay a six-figure salary? There might be quarterly department-level targets, but you won't get fired for missing them. Flexible working hours, and no checks you're putting in your hours. Illness? Take as long off as you need. Of course there's free tea, coffee and snacks. Maybe there's also free breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Just because a job is highly paid, doesn't mean it'll be particularly onerous - in fact, often the opposite!

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#598

Post by pferde »

throwaway1293 wrote: post #573
elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

Note that I'm not saying we shouldn't do as best as we can with documentation, clean code, etc, BUT: In the open source world, I've developed a large low quality codebase that is very complex from when I was less experienced. This project has gotten plenty of contributions over the years, some from less experienced and some from more experienced. The experienced developers know how to get around the codebase, but the…

It could be that the more experienced developers are just burnt out in trying to give that kind of feedback, and instead just grit their teeth and get through the code base as they need.

Meanwhile the newer, less experienced developers probably still have a bit of... let's say naive optimism, and try to give feedback more.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#599

Post by cushychicken »

cebert wrote: post #582

I am shocked this author doesn’t mention the interview process itself. Leetcode grinding does very little to benefit engineers in their current position and will not help them at future employers either. I can tell some firms like Amazon are in need of talent as I get hit up frequently by their recruiters. My current job is good and I don’t feel like doing leetcode prep to interview anywhere. Their loss.

This is a phenomenon I'm seeing across all fields of engineering - not just software engineering. Fortunately for me there's no such thing as LeetCode for electrical engineering interviews.

A ton of people in my professional network doing RF, ME, and EE are getting a taste of how sweet WFH is for the very first time. Many have been in industry for decades, and never had that kind of flexibility before. We're also in fields where people can't solve a hiring shortage by offering $400k total comp. There just ain't that kind of budget at hardware companies. (Except maybe Apple.)

The kind of raises offered just ain't worth giving up a cushy gig right now! The pull of money alone isn't strong enough.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#600

Post by avgcorrection »

> Every engineer is at least a little bit techno-utopian.

I’m not. Although I’m more of a technologist than an engineer.

If anything I’m techno-dystopian.

The world’s biggest problems are political, technological. And fantasies of fixing them with technology are just that.

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