President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#591

Post by pyuser583 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

pphysch wrote: post #350

Bayesian_bro wrote: post #215

This is just an example of the different ethics between China and America. America is very deontological in terms of FREEDOM. We love freedom above everything else. China is very consequentialist, they care about prosperity and success over everything else. I'm a pretty red blooded American (I drive a black smoke diesel truck and have enough firearms and ammo to make it pretty far in the apocalypse). I wonder what et…

To be crystal clear, the PRC does not view Tiananmen Square as a purely domestic affair. The extent to which students were radicalized, or signal-boosted by foreign influence is unclear. In that sense, a better comparison would be an event in America's history that had significant foreign interference. For example, 9/11. You can talk objectively about 9/11, sure, just like you can talk objectively about Tiananmen Squ…

Tiananmen Square: foreign interference is unclear.

9/11: Clear foreign involvement.

You’re comparing these two things because they both have foreign involvement?

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#592

Post by CoastalCoder » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

api wrote: post #106

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #63

The scale of some Chinese people's commitment to support of their government's chosen narrative against facts is quite impressive / scary. Zealots make great cannon fodder, and the more cannon fodder the higher the chance of winning. It bodes poorly for Hong Kong, Taiwan, and any other country with a coastline along the South China Sea.

America was like this during the run-up to the Iraq war. The last iteration of "cancel culture" was when anyone questioning the war was shouted down as un-patriotic. Search for the Dixie Chicks, a country group who spoke out against the war, and read about what happened to them. One of the things I've learned in my years on this planet is that propaganda works . It works very very well. That's why governments, corpor…

I agree with your main point, and it definitely adds some pessimism to my world view.

Regarding the Dixie Chicks, I'm not sure that's a good exemplar to support your main point. (See sibling comment that suggests they did quite well.)

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#593

Post by tgv » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

Koshkin wrote: post #280

oxymoran wrote: post #45

The brainwashing must be strong for students thousands of miles away from China in the middle of nowhere Indiana for them to feel the need to snitch on dissenters. Or, more likely, they were threatened before they left China that they would be watched while abroad.

> thousands of miles away from China Does this really matter in the age of the internet?

Since it makes immediate physical repercussion, like detention or torture, by the Chinese state less feasible, it is remarkable.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#594

Post by catlikesshrimp » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

rkk3 wrote: post #507

vhgyu75e6u wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones that block freedom of the press, block and censore the internet, deploy military force against civilians, anex peaceful territories by force, push other democracies to overwrite their history, and commit genocide... So the Chinese government.

And those are all things the US, the UK and most western government's have done & will do again.

They aren't doing it right now.

China, on the other hand, just bashed Hong Kong liberties, and to my horror, media already forgot about that.

And when you get to name a country that doesn't respect human rights, that still doesn't justify you to do the same

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#595

Post by pphysch » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #591

pphysch wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be crystal clear, the PRC does not view Tiananmen Square as a purely domestic affair. The extent to which students were radicalized, or signal-boosted by foreign influence is unclear. In that sense, a better comparison would be an event in America's history that had significant foreign interference. For example, 9/11. You can talk objectively about 9/11, sure, just like you can talk objectively about Tiananmen Squ…

Tiananmen Square: foreign interference is unclear. 9/11: Clear foreign involvement. You’re comparing these two things because they both have foreign involvement?

Tiananmen Square certainly had foreign involvement. Extent is unclear, just like extent of US ICs role in 9/11 is unclear (e.g. to what extent were the hijackers protected by the IC?).

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#596

Post by ivalm » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

chernevik wrote: post #426

yholio wrote: post #198

It's a very weak response from Purdue. Zhihao Kong was bullied and followed around on campus for commemorating the victims of the Tiananmen masacre. He was called a CIA agent by fellow Purdue students and was reported to the Chinese state, who attempted to silence him by forcefully leaning on his family in Hong Kong. The identities of the bullies is well known and the extent of abuse is borderline criminal. There sho…

He can't immediately announce punishment without violation of due process. The perpetrators may be known, but even so that has to be formally established before the school can do anything about them. It's unfortunate that there isn't a greater response from the student body in defense of free speech.

Maybe, but again a university is not bound by due process requirements. I do agree that it might be good practice to not violate them. Let’s see if Purdue does eventually act.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#597

Post by yholio » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #366

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't some kids bullying another kid. These are adults representing a national government. This is a nation bullying someone inside the United States for exercising free speech. The message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana.

> adults representing a national government Legally adults, perhaps, but I think we have a social consensus that most college students are kids. Their brains haven't fully developed. If they're coming out of a brainwashed environment, they may never have been explicitly told that this is wrong; they deserve a second chance. > message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana I agree. My vote would be for a…

> social consensus that most college students are kids. Their brains haven't fully developed

If they are mature enough for the Chinese government to shoot them in the head for peaceful protesting, then they are mature enough to understand that some democratic cultures have strong objections against the CCP and those who do their bidding.

It's one of those things where the real world is too dangerous to allow kids to be kids: you must tell 5 year olds that magic capes can't help them fly, and that they should run away from strange men who wish to touch their peepee, even if, for an ideally happy childhood, you shouldn't have to.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#598

Post by cgriswald » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #366

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't some kids bullying another kid. These are adults representing a national government. This is a nation bullying someone inside the United States for exercising free speech. The message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana.

> adults representing a national government Legally adults, perhaps, but I think we have a social consensus that most college students are kids. Their brains haven't fully developed. If they're coming out of a brainwashed environment, they may never have been explicitly told that this is wrong; they deserve a second chance. > message needs to be received in Beijing, not merely Indiana I agree. My vote would be for a…

> Legally adults, perhaps, but I think we have a social consensus that most college students are kids. Their brains haven't fully developed. If they're coming out of a brainwashed environment, they may never have been explicitly told that this is wrong; they deserve a second chance.

I really don't think we do have such a consensus. The post-high school (for those who graduated) 18-year-olds from my old neighborhood who committed offenses didn't get this consideration. They went to jail. Knowing their home lives growing up, it was no surprise to anyone that they committed the offenses they committed. It's difficult to see how they could have done otherwise. They weren't explicitly brainwashed, but they grew up in an environment that warped their world view as thoroughly as any Chinese propaganda could have done.

In the United States, we've also tried children as young as 11 years old as adults.

I think there is a social consensus to give college students a pass.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#599

Post by pyuser583 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

pphysch wrote: post #562

mrtranscendence wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what to make of this comparison. You're not sure the extent to which foreign influence played a role in radicalizing people leading up to an event where Chinese citizens were massacred by the Chinese state, so it's fair to compare it to a situation where foreign nationals murdered US civilians? This is apples and oranges. Apples and Teslas. Dogs and supercomputers. They're not the same thing. > just like…

There is substantial evidence that Washington was involved in amplifying misinformation and possibly directing student leaders to escalate the violence. Take student leader Chai Ling, for example [1]. She is on record advocating for bloodshed, yet apparently did not take part in the deadly rioting. Instead, she landed at Princeton and Harvard. The sad truth is that most Americans have no interest in understanding wha…

What is this substantial evidence? A one of the protestors moving to the US isn’t terribly convincing.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#600

Post by zymhan » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

chernevik wrote: post #479

spcebar wrote: post #31

Response from the student: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purdue/comments/ri95tp/in_response_...

Well said: "In my world there's always a place for you; you can disagree with me; you can even insult me; I will not fire back because that is your freedom of expression, however In your world there's no place for me; you want to eliminate me and even my family from the world just because I disagree with your government or your ideology; this is puzzling isn't it?"

Now that is an evergreen quote.