Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation • Hacker News Board

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#591

Post by mc32 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #514

throwawaycities wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad this was the top comment. Wages have not kept up with cost of living for 50 years in the US. We need to stop pretending flat wages are some modern problem of inflation, and we need to stop pretending inflation is some problem caused by the pandemic.

Is it not a problem? Wages rose substantially in the years between WWII and the 1970s but isn't that the actual aberration?

That’s part of it. It’s similar to China from the 90’s to the 2020’s. Likely Chinese will not see real wages go up at the same rate in the 2039’s as they did the previous decades.

That said, what’s eating real wage growth is outsourcing. It’s simple. If I can build a fridge by paying workers in China or Mexico $2/hr vs paying a US worker $22/hr in a manufactury plant, my competition will eventually lose market share and shutter if they don’t also move manufacturing to a cheaper labor market.

Without any import taxes to adjust for labor conditions and costs, thus will put downward pressure on stateside labor markets.

People know this. But they ALSO complain of stagnating wages, while at the same time NOT wanting their US manufactured good to be more expensive than those made over seas!

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#592

Post by germinalphrase » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #545

shakezula wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason countries like NZ seem to be able to quickly and efficiently pass sweeping gun reform laws is because it’s not effecting any major gun producers bottom line. In America that is very much not the situation. Additionally, even if profits were a moot point, the 2nd amendment is a culture war wedge issue that runs bone-deep for the average American.

The gun industry started the culture war for profit and fans the flames for profit. Take away the profit margins and have a few more mass shootings and I imagine the 2nd amendment would melt away as easily as the 4th did.

Even if we entirely ended the manufacture and sale of guns, there are far too many guns already in private possession for it to matter (I.e. there are more guns in circulation right now than there are people in this country). As a gun owner, it is obvious that to eliminate mass shootings we would have to eliminate private ownership of all semi-automatic firearms. That is so incredibly far outside the realm of possibility. The ability to engage in a mass shooting is not going to change; we need to engage the issue from other angles.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#593

Post by jl6 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s

I wasn’t around in the 1970s, so can someone explain to me how great it was with some examples that would make me want to go and live in the 1970s?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#594

Post by notreallyserio » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

the_gipsy wrote: post #194

onion2k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the other side, whenever a member of my team has come to me asking to match an offer I've always refused and wished them well in their new role. If someone is unhappy enough to start job hunting rather than talking to me then it's a clear sign that they'll leave soon regardless of any pay rise. Psychologically, every pay increase makes someone happy for a short time, and then they get used to it and they start t…

> If someone is unhappy enough to start job hunting What if salary is the only thing they are unhappy about?

I suppose they'd be best off asking for a raise (easy) than applying for jobs and interviewing (a lot more work).

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#595

Post by nobody9999 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #530

markvdb wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like you are talking about social inequality (a zero sum game) vs poverty (a non zero sum game) The two are not opposed. There is significant overlap significantly in many ways, even in the way government treats the very definition of poverty. In most countries, you'll find that poverty is defined as a percentage of median income. Let me try to rephrase to make this more tangible. The minimum of things and se…

> Or to formulate it more sharply, you couldn't be poor because of not being able to afford a cell phone in 1970. You can be poor because of not being able to afford a cell phone in 2021. Does that mean a cell phone is a bad thing? Of course not! So.. how does that imply that people are worse off now than in 1970? Your entire thesis seems to be that the jealousy people will feel from seeing others have things they do…

>So.. how does that imply that people are worse off now than in 1970? Your entire thesis seems to be that the jealousy people will feel from seeing others have things they don't will outweigh all of the material gains of the last half century.

As an American, I don't subscribe to that thesis. At all.

What I do see (as someone in his mid 50s) is that the biggest difference is that folks back then believed (and it actually happened for many) that they would be better off than their parents.

That's no longer the case. There are a variety of reasons for this, not least of which are the systematic[0] changes to our economy that pushes wealth and resources to the top, at the expense of those at the bottom.

This didn't happen by accident, and I'm not really surprised that folks here on HN aren't focused specifically on that issue -- primarily because most of us are beneficiaries of said systematic changes.

The worst part (IMHO) is that these changes will only benefit those at the top for a limited time. Given that 70% of the US economy is consumer spending, taking purchasing power away from the vast majority of consumers is a recipe for a bad economy.

Increasing wages and safety nets makes good economic sense, as it broadens the market for consumer goods, makes it easier for folks to act in entrepreneurial ways, and in the medium to long term expands the economic pie, creating a healthier, more resilient economy.

Pushing wealth/resources to the top just doesn't do that at all. How many yachts/houses/cars/dresses/suits/pizzas/kale smoothies/etc. can one person reasonable purchase/use?

Even if you spread the money around more broadly, the wealthy will continue to be wealthy, and the rest won't have to work two or three jobs just to feed their kids boxed macaroni and cheese five times a week.

[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/systematic

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#596

Post by dfxm12 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #20

We had an all-hands meeting recently where we got to submit anonymous questions. One of the questions was 'with inflation rising at 6%, will the company reconsider their 'standard' 2% raise?' The lady answering looks dead in the camera and goes 'Honestly? No' and goes on to talk about how we're reasonably competitive with the local market. Hey, credit where credit is due, at least she was a refreshingly straight shoo…

It pretty much let everyone on the call know what they needed to do if they wanted a good raise.

What is needed? I mean, if she's a straight shooter and your salaries are competitive locally, does that mean you'll have to up up and move elsewhere? That costs time and money, and to be honest, wages are low nation-wide.

This does highlight the fact that wages are kept low almost by a concerted effort among employers. They aren't going to change out of the goodness of their hearts. Change has to come from the government (don't hold your breath), or from workers acting collectively.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#597

Post by notreallyserio » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

ergocoder wrote: post #147

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #20

We had an all-hands meeting recently where we got to submit anonymous questions. One of the questions was 'with inflation rising at 6%, will the company reconsider their 'standard' 2% raise?' The lady answering looks dead in the camera and goes 'Honestly? No' and goes on to talk about how we're reasonably competitive with the local market. Hey, credit where credit is due, at least she was a refreshingly straight shoo…

Google HR answered this question in a company-wide forum. It is mostly the market (e.g. the other company pay high, so we do too). The living cost doesn't really matter. I appreciate the honesty though.

If that's truly the case then they would pay the same salary regardless of location. Do they? A lot of big employers have proudly said no, they'd pay remote workers less if they're in cheaper locations.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#598

Post by greedo » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #568

vermilingua wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any sources for that claim? Anecdotally I believe that to be entirely false, but if there are studies you’ve read that back you up I’d love to read them.

Here is one JD Power survey although you'd probably have to dig to find numbers over a longer period of time. In my experience, it's clearly true overall. In the 1970s, say, you're probably looking at a car in the snow belt lasting 5 years because of rust and 100,000 miles was generally considered very high mileage.

That's because the majority of cars bought in the snow belt during the 70's were American made, and US car quality was terrible during this period.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#599

Post by mac01021 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #442

chinathrow wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'Honestly? No' The 'No' alone would be enough, but the 'Honestly?' would me want to look for other jobs right away.

>> 'Honestly? No' > > The 'No' alone would be enough, but the 'Honestly?' would me want to look for other jobs right away. Can you explain why one is worse than the other? (I'm not being facetious, I'd really rather like to know).

I suspect the GP is interpreting "Honestly?" as an expression of incredulity at being asked the question - as though the asker did not know their place as an employee.

I can see how such an attitude would be offputting, but I do not believe that is the correct interpretation of the HR spokesperson's meaning.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#600

Post by Workaccount2 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #593

Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I wasn’t around in the 1970s, so can someone explain to me how great it was with some examples that would make me want to go and live in the 1970s?

There is a whole website for this, but it's more the 1960's that were golden.

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/