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Web3? I have my DAOts

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Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ETH already scales with L2 while remaining the most decentralized and secure

Yeah, let me just lock up my ETH for a week so I can move it to Arbitrum and only have to pay $25 a transaction instead of $100.

You should really do more research because that's not how it'll work.

The idea is that users will onboard straight to Layer 2 and stay on Layer 2. Layer 1 will only be used by protocols and extremely important transactions like nation-state transactions. You'll also be able to move between L2's via bridging protocols like Hop.

This isn't just Ethereum BTW. Other chains are moving to layer 2 rollups because that's just how blockchains scale. Ethereum is getting a lot of shit because it's dealing with unprecedented demand and it refuses to cut corners on important things like decentralization. Other chains will have the same fate if they grow large enough.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#592

I find both the evangelism of and the hostility towards “Web 3” kind of silly. Obviously there’s some amount of interesting stuff and obviously there’s some amount of tech bro assholes getting rich who “shouldn’t”. Just like ~2008-2012, ~1999-2002, ~1994-1996, ~1982-1986, etc. On the technology side: distributed Byzantine consensus is an open problem with some promising prototypes. It would have very cool use cases:…

Just about all cryptocurrencies are built on top of 'number go up' deflationary FOMO token-omics. New buyers are buying from older buyers. The older buyers are the fools that are looking for greater fools.

But as you say, one day there might actually be real value here. But here's the rub, this is all decentralized, and thus anyone at any time can create their own chain, and many have already done so. And these technologies might just not need blockchain at all, for instance IPFS looks likely to lose to Torrents.

So why would I buy a piece of an existing chain, when I can just wait for the technology to be created and spin it off on a new chain, for a price of $nearly_free instead of $massive? This is not the same as investing in Google or Amazon in 1999. If I am buying into the coin for the utility and not for the hype, I would never touch a mainstream coin. If a AAA game were to create their own NFTs, they would do so on their own chain. I would generate my own chain to confirm my own identity.

No coin that currently exists has a long-term value above $0.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#593
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if you realize this but you proved my point perfectly. Someone defrauded you, and you were able to recover the money . With crypto, when you get defrauded, you will never see the money again. If you think there is no fraud in crypto, I have some things to sell you.

They never would have been able to access my funds in the first place if this was on a blockchain. Your argument amounts to the same as relying on the police to return your car after it has been stolen and then declaring that as security.

Yes, my argument does amount to that.

Your argument amounts to claiming you have a car that is impossible to steal, and yet becomes permanently inoperable if you press the wrong button on the dashboard.

Being able to recover stolen property is a good thing, you know?

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#594

I find both the evangelism of and the hostility towards “Web 3” kind of silly. Obviously there’s some amount of interesting stuff and obviously there’s some amount of tech bro assholes getting rich who “shouldn’t”. Just like ~2008-2012, ~1999-2002, ~1994-1996, ~1982-1986, etc. On the technology side: distributed Byzantine consensus is an open problem with some promising prototypes. It would have very cool use cases:…

Curious why you think L2 rollups and sharding are "kick-the-can". Both pieces of tech have enormous scaling potential.

DISCLAIMER: I'm happy to be educated if I've got this wrong. I'm extremely sensitive to the fact that this is complicated, changing really fast, and I could easily be fully full of shit.

But as far as I understand it's all some variation on "we're going to anchor something on the slow, expensive, trustworthy chain that represents a promise that we're going to settle stuff over here and report back to the big, slow, expensive but trusted chain".

Often that anchor is some variation of a multi-sig custodial wallet with a bunch of blockchain bigshots on it, i.e. a fucking bank. If people want to evade banking regulations that's their business, but calling it cryptographic novelty is stupid.

Sometimes it's "we're going to settle transactions on some shard, so it doesn't matter that it's somewhere between a slow wristwatch and a fast potato in terms of throughput", in which case the people I want to transact with need to participate in that shard, in which case you've got Metcalfe's Law working against you: you're on the wrong side of the polynomial. I want to buy some shit from merchant $FOO but they're not on my shard. Damn, guess I need to route some $COIN up through the real chain and down to the shard where my pot dealer is.

The point is that if the thing you were deferring the transaction onto was both trustworthy and scalable, then you'd just use that. It's this non-terminating recursion where each invocation of the Y-combinator kicks off a fat token offering. Which is why the Lightening whitepaper is now $ZILLION pages long when it started at 18: every hole they patch creates 3 more.

IO-HK is somewhere south of RenTech and somewhere north of NASA in terms of the Nobel laureates they've got working on Ouroboros [BFT|Praus|Genesis]? and they can't get it to work: ADA is getting pushed around a warmed-over Tendermint still (really fast potato).

The ParityTech people seem to have learned the hard way that Google barely made it fly with friggin cesium clocks and satellites in a non-Byzantine setting when they put together BABE [BADASS|SASAFRASS|WHATEVER]? and slapped GRANDPA on it. Ethereum v2 gets delayed with roughly the same cadence as viable fusion power (but Casper the FFG!).

If someone knows how to do a chain that's truly secure, truly decentralized, and doesn't cost $500 to buy a $5 ENS domain then I missed that paper.

If you know of a project that actually works I want in on the governance token. It'll make BTC look like a victim of hyperinflation.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let me just lock up my ETH for a week so I can move it to Arbitrum and only have to pay $25 a transaction instead of $100.

You should really do more research because that's not how it'll work. The idea is that users will onboard straight to Layer 2 and stay on Layer 2. Layer 1 will only be used by protocols and extremely important transactions like nation-state transactions. You'll also be able to move between L2's via bridging protocols like Hop. This isn't just Ethereum BTW. Other chains are moving to layer 2 rollups because that's jus…

I'm simply stating how Arbitrum works today. And sure, once there's more adoption on L2s then there will be a reason to stay in the ecosystem, and I do get that it's inevitable that we'll have a multichain future (we have a multichain present anyways), but in this model I just don't understand why ETH has value in the thousands of dollars per token. The answer is simply amounting to "you cannot afford our chain so go use a different one". So I'll happily work with a more affordable chain with higher throughput.

I hope that the ETH vision works out because right now it's kind of a clusterfuck tbh. But until the planned vision is not theory and is fully realized, I think it's absurd to refuse to work with other L1 solutions like Solana simply because Ethereum has a large head start on decentralization. I think that if people try some Web3 apps on a chain like Solana or Avalanche, more people would be excited about the potential that Web3 can bring. Instead, we have people blindly yelling about how NFTs are bad for the environment or whatever nonsense, or that it cost someone $100 to move $50.

And regarding using ETH for nation state transactions, you can simply just use BTC for such important transactions. It's more decentralized than Ethereum and is just going to continue to decentralize.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#596

I find both the evangelism of and the hostility towards “Web 3” kind of silly. Obviously there’s some amount of interesting stuff and obviously there’s some amount of tech bro assholes getting rich who “shouldn’t”. Just like ~2008-2012, ~1999-2002, ~1994-1996, ~1982-1986, etc. On the technology side: distributed Byzantine consensus is an open problem with some promising prototypes. It would have very cool use cases:…

Just about all cryptocurrencies are built on top of 'number go up' deflationary FOMO token-omics. New buyers are buying from older buyers. The older buyers are the fools that are looking for greater fools. But as you say, one day there might actually be real value here. But here's the rub, this is all decentralized, and thus anyone at any time can create their own chain, and many have already done so. And these techn…

You've definitely got a point, but I think you might be oversimplifying a little in some places and maybe missing the bigger picture in some important ways.

There is clearly an asset bubble in cryptocurrencies. But I'm borderline weirded out by how singled-out the crypto asset bubble is compared to say, the US equities asset bubble, or residential real-estate asset bubble, or any of the other places that we're warehousing major currencies inflation. It doesn't really matter if you look at `SPY`, or the Qs, or just one of the FAANGs: from right before the COVID overreaction to the present day a dollar (which hasn't really slipped all that badly against any of its easing-addled peers) buys you about half the amount of Big Tech as it did on Jan 1 2020. Nothing Earth-shattering has happened to the business models or 5-year outlooks of any of these companies. The smartphone market is every bit as saturated as it was 2 years ago. The FB/IG feed ad load is no less maxed out, Waymo isn't running 10MM pilot level 5 autonomous taxi rides across 50 cities in 20 countries, and Elon Musk sure as hell hasn't colonized Mars (at least his stated ambition justifies a PE ratio in the hundreds: he's on record that he's trying to own a planet).

So I'd argue that Apple stock hasn't 2-3x increased in the last 2 years in any other way than dollar-denominated.

I'm the last person to try to sell you a cryptocurrency token, I don't give a shit what the price of ETH is. But just because Gamestonk or `ETH` is the lottery ticket available to people who don't know a guy who knows a guy who knows Ron Conway doesn't mean that going to school, working hard, and saving a quarter of every paycheck is going to get you anywhere in a casino economy where the CPI doesn't seem to move with the cost of healthcare or education or any of the shit that's really eating the working person alive (at least in the US).

`BTC` and `ETH` may turn out to be worthless tulip bulbs, it's not even all that unlikely from a Bayesian standpoint, but the pervasive implication that the `/r/crypto` people are at a casino and the A16Z people aren't is absurd. The A16Z people can just afford to lose a hand or two, and the `/r/crypto` people have nothing to lose.

Doesn't make em stupid.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#597
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I think if you are a business you should choose technology that allows you to be compliant with the law. Unless the law violates personal liberty, which GDPR does.

How does GDPR violate personal liberty? I am very curious if you can pinpoint what exactly from it violates personal libery.

It violates the right to offer a service in exchange for permanent access to the private data the user discloses to you.

It's a cookie cutter rule that restricts contract liberty to create more regimented social interaction.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#598
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you've set me up perfectly for the real point: stocks generate dividends. Dividends mean that the "rocks" you hold spit out a few pennies magically every so often. While fewer stocks today pay a dividend, many still do. For holding bonds you get the coupon payment, which again is like your rocks spitting out pennies every so often. In the real world, companies and governments are paying you to hold their rocks. T…

But dividends are zero-sum. The shareholder gets the money, the corporate entity loses it. The value created is the value created by the company's business operations, which is independent of whether any of the profits are ever distributed as dividends. By analogy, it would be the value of the currency as a currency, i.e. to facilitate productive financial transactions that would not otherwise occur. The reason non-s…

Corporations change. They employ people to innovate and labor. They aren't the same thing over time. But that BTC you own just sits there doing nothing. It does not change. The innovation and labor of employees drives up the value of a corporations.

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Blockchain says I own this case of wine... but the other guy wont give me my wine! Who do I call? The physical, centralized police and the centralized legal system that back it. Without that legal system recognizing and honoring it, it's worthless. And if it all depends on my centralized legal system, then who cares about the decentralized blockchain. Might as well put it in a table in a database instance runnin…

You could say the same thing about property deeds, contracts, etc. The fact that the laws of physics still apply in the world and thus people can still physically take things from you, harm you, etc. is hardly an argument against any specific method for establishing and recording ownership or contracts.

Sure. You need a state to enforce property rights.

But the point is that the centralized system that managed property deeds does not require an absolutely gargantuan amount of computation to be performed to do a basic transaction. And since I already need the state to enforce property rights, why not have the state also be involved in the recognition of who owns what?

Re: Web3? I have my DAOts

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but handing over a check in person ensures you “got the payment in” at a specific time if you’re trying to beat another buyer. But I guess you can do a wire transfer in person.

...or a wallet to wallet transfer of USDC...

How much time does a transfer like that take for tens of thousands of dollars

Asking because I don't know, and because I suspect it takes longer than I'd like if I'm trying to get my payment in first to secure the item (like I have had to do when buying used cars from private parties.)

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