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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#591

Post by gumby »

watwut wrote: post #554
gumby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

> German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issue — I think that is likely bull. Why would that be bull? Kids brains develops over time.

Good question: I should not have phrased it that way at all.

I mean there isn’t a sharp delineation that magically happens; there are n factors (some large, unknown number) each of which develop at a slightly different rate in each child; there’s nothing magic about reaching 6. My opinion might reflect an accidentally rigid expression of this when my own kid was 6.

Thanks for your comment!

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#592

Post by pclmulqdq »

Retric wrote: post #576
xyzzy21 wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The thing is that you have to adjust curriculum to the developmental stage of the INDIVIDUAL child. Teaching someone too early only wastes the time, resources and money of that teaching. Too late and you lose future options. I didn't learn to read until 1st grade but many of my peers learned in kindergarten. Individuals do NOT all reach the same learning readiness phase at the same time or same age (two diff…

Part of this is simply a function of specialization. Teaching high school let alone first grade to an extremely high academic standard doesn’t actually achieve anything significant for society. It’s arguably much better to give kids reasonable minimum standards and plenty of free time and the capacity to explore their interests. This avoids burnout and generally keeps people interested in their passions rather than s…

What if the students are interested in learning a subject to a high academic standard and will be bored otherwise? I was getting lower grades at my easy "teach to the bottom 10%" public school than the very difficult private school I moved to. By just dismissing academic rigor, you are alienating the high-performers who WANT to care. That's a bad group of people for a society to ignore.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#593

Post by avs733 »

It is worth reading the FAQs... https://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/ma/cf/mathfwfaqs.asp

A few examples...(highlights mine)

>Does the draft Mathematics Framework eliminate middle school mathematics acceleration programs?

>No. The draft Mathematics Framework does not eliminate middle school mathematics acceleration programs (including programs that offer Integrated Math 1 or Algebra 1 courses to grade eight students). The draft Mathematics Framework emphasizes the importance of following the sequenced progression of topics laid out in the Common Core State Standards for Mathematics (CCSSM) and considers the latest research on the impact of skipping grades or undermining the sequences progression. Additionally, the CA CCSSM are significantly more rigorous than those from previous grade eight content standards. They address the foundations of algebra and geometry by including content that was previously part of the Algebra I course, including but not limited to a more in-depth study of linear relationships and equations, a more formal treatment of functions, and the exploration of irrational numbers.

>Does the draft Mathematics Framework remove high school calculus?

>No. The draft Mathematics Framework includes calculus in the possible high school pathways, while also presenting research that the “rush to calculus” without the depth of understanding is not helpful to students’ long-term mathematics preparation. Data shows that about one-half of all high school students who take calculus repeat the course in college or take pre-calculus in college.

In summary: everyone is looking counting how many math courses students manage to get through and presuming that taking a course = mastery which it does not. The basis of this, frankly, is similar to the common core argument - different assumptions about evidence. Parents want to see their kids taking algebra and calculus because that is (to be frank) the best evidence they have of their learning while educational researchers (not teachers, researchers) are looking at meaningful assessment data.

I teach college course to engineering students at a highly ranked research university in the US. Frankly, the majority of my students have taken more math classes by the time they get to me in their junior year than I did by the end of my masters degree. The problem is they understand very little of it. Sure, sometimes, they can execute procedures. But they do not have mastery, they do not have teh ability to apply math to meaningful situations, and they absolutely do not have the ability to use math to evaluate technical problems. They are calculators not users of math - that is the problem this seeks to address

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#594

Post by hackinthebochs »

zwirbl wrote: post #578
polaris_mars wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so ironic that you mention Germany,where kids are split (at age 10, 12?) into hauptschule (lower ability), realschule (medium ability), and gymnasium (higher ability). To think ramanujans of this world would benefit from lower standards is also having no idea or never knowing one in real life.

The system is less about ability than which social class one belongs to. Affluent -> Gymnasium Poor -> Hauptschule Realschule gets some of both

Is the stratification by social class an example of correlation or causation?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#595

Post by bla3 »

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

In my experience, high achievers become interested in topics only covered in higher grades sooner or later anyways. And once they do, they pursue them only out of interest and intrinsic motivation, and that tends to boost their motivation. So I don't think this affects high achievers all that much either way.

Almost by definition, school (and everything else) is designed for the top of the bell curve.

Now, maybe school plan design can move the median ability up or down, and I don't have an opinion on if this change here does that, and if so, in what direction. I do think it doesn't affect the high end much either way.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#596

Post by gumby »

djsbs wrote: post #552
gumby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

I learned how to read in Spanish, and very shortly thereafter I moved to an English country. Totally different. You just cant compare a phonetic language to one like English. My daughter is now learning how to read in the best school in my city and its taking her over year compared to me. We started at roughly the same age, but she and her classmates are struggling through hours of practice. “Thats a sharp e honey” “…

My kid’s school had them start English in grade 1, learning both languages in parallel, with English being complete immersion (not a word of German spoken and even in a couple of cases hiring teachers who spoke no German). The kids learned both languages at the same rate.

My story is just anecdote, not science, of course, as is yours.

I noticed that a number of the German parents had the same concerns as you, because they expected the spelling to be more phonetic. German orthography, like Spanish’s has changed over time to match pronunciation shifts. English does not. As a result English words often hold their roots. The trade off is that you may not knownthe pronunciation of an unfamiliar word but may be able to figure out its meaning. As with all languages, in the end none is “harder” than the other despite folklore: sharp corners are always being knocked off because the tool is so important and in continuous use.

In the most recent German spelling reform, the authors were concerned about this trade off.

Another way to describe it: you can’t approach writing c++ as if it were Java, and vice versa. Quite similar, yet quite different.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#598

Post by lordnacho »

bla3 wrote: post #595
userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

In my experience, high achievers become interested in topics only covered in higher grades sooner or later anyways. And once they do, they pursue them only out of interest and intrinsic motivation, and that tends to boost their motivation. So I don't think this affects high achievers all that much either way. Almost by definition, school (and everything else) is designed for the top of the bell curve. Now, maybe scho…

Sure, that works for resourceful high achievers. There's probably a lot of kids who wouldn't go looking for interesting stuff simply because they don't have access to their own computer, or there's no teacher who's noticed that they are interested in stuff and has extra time to throw a few bones their way. Basically self starters who haven't been ignited yet.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#599

Post by linuxftw »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #592
Retric wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of this is simply a function of specialization. Teaching high school let alone first grade to an extremely high academic standard doesn’t actually achieve anything significant for society. It’s arguably much better to give kids reasonable minimum standards and plenty of free time and the capacity to explore their interests. This avoids burnout and generally keeps people interested in their passions rather than s…

What if the students are interested in learning a subject to a high academic standard and will be bored otherwise? I was getting lower grades at my easy "teach to the bottom 10%" public school than the very difficult private school I moved to. By just dismissing academic rigor, you are alienating the high-performers who WANT to care. That's a bad group of people for a society to ignore.

You're missing the point. The purpose of public school is to provide a basic education. If you want to do more work, or your parents want you to study more, you're free to do so.

In your very own example, you went to a private school and did well. That's great, that's what's supposed to happen. What's currently happening in public schools is that too many resources are being allocated to the over achievers and not enough to the under achievers. There's not enough money to fund all programs, so you have to ensure you fund the most needy first.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#600

Post by dls2016 »

foxhop wrote: post #582

We have observed that physical distancing children hurt a lot of children. It was a sacrifical experiment to try to save the elderly and weak. When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months, we knew even then that children are not really at risk of dying from sars-cov-2. Seems like the correct course of action for the times is to take education out of the hands of go…

Sounds like your child would have been fine in any system.
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