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An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

appleprivacyletter.com

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Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#591
post #589
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were saying that this is a slippery slope argument which implies that it is a fallacious argument. I am saying that isn’t the case. We have been sliding on this slope for decades which deems that the argument is valid and not fallacious. From Wikipedia’s entry for slippery slope: “The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of midd…

You’re ignoring the sentence after I mention the slippery slope, where I say: > These are clearly real concerns and even Tim Cook admits that if you build a back door, bad people will use it. I’m not the one ignoring the middle ground.

I have read through your comments on the article. You are the bogeyman. Good bye. You are the one promoting the latest false middle ground along an actual sliding slope. That is disingenuous.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah? Which one? I kind of doubt it because I've been censored for simply asking very straightforward questions with zero adjectives.

"Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."

Nah. Maybe that was one from today, but it certainly doesn't apply to the comments I've been referring to.

No, what I gather is that many people cannot change their minds when presented with good evidence. Here's one: They complain about "monocultures" as if they're always bad but when I point out that the Linux kernel created a monoculture and the world hasn't imploded, they have no come-back. So they do the only thing that they can do.

It's fine with me, I wear it as a badge of pride because I know I'm right whenever that happens.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#593
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe that child pornography is a massive issue, I respect that. I just would have hoped you could better describe the actual size of the problem and its evolution. I don’t mind whether you are convinced. I’m not trying to convince you about the size of the problem. My position isn’t about how large the threat is. I don’t have any information that you don’t have access to. My position is that if we care ab…

>if we care about privacy we have to accept that people other than ourselves think the problem is big enough to warrant these measures. Not sure what you mean here by "accept". Accept the fact those people and opinions exist? Sure! Accept their opinion without challenging, without asking questions? No. Accept this opinion is big and rational enough for the majority to follow and make laws? No. >You have already lost…

> What makes you think that? That's just your opinion.

It’s not just my opinion that Apple has implemented a hash based mechanism to scan for child pornography that runs on people’s phones. People complaining about it have definitely lost the battle already. It is already here.

> I understand you may try to convince readers that it is over, because it may be your opinion.

That is not an accurate understanding of my argument.

My position is to agree with those who see this as a slippery slope of increasingly invasive surveillance technology, and to point out that simply arguing against it has been consistently failing over time.

I am also pointing out that one reason it’s failing is that even if the measures are invasive and we think that is bad, the problems they are intended to solve are real and widely perceived as justifying the measures.

What I advocate is that we accept that this is the environment, and if we don’t like Apple’s solution, we develop, or at least propose alternative ways of addressing the problem.

That way we would have a better alternative to argue in favor of rather than just complaining about the solution which Apple has produced and which is the only proposal on the table.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#594

US Government: We suspect the person in this photo of committing a crime. Here is your subpoena, Apple. You are directed to scan all iPhone and iCloud storage for any pictures matching this NeuralHash and report to us where you find them. Chinese Government: Here is the NeuralHash for Tienanmen square. Delete all photos you find matching this or we will bar you from China. Apple has at this point already admitted thi…

Was it ever actually in doubt that Apple could read stuff you put in their cloud of they so desired? It seems obvious.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#595
post #50

Fixed: Chinese Government: Here is the NeuralHash for some child abuse imagery, please scan this user's phone and tell us if it's found. Apple: Sure we found it. Chinese Government: this user has unpermitted winnie the pooh memes. Send them to an internment camp.

Please don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents and certainly not off-topic ones. We're trying to avoid this sort of crap thread here.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28086140.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#596
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguing that concerns about children are overblown or being exploited for nefarious means may be ‘true’, but it does nothing to provide an alternative that Apple could use - If the stats don't justify their fears - And I come up with a technological solution that will make the stats even lower - Their fears will not be reduced - Because their fears are not based on the stats ---- > Apple’s customers do include many…

> Their fear is real, but it can not be solved by any technological invention or policy change, including Apple's current system. Because you're telling me that they're scared regardless of what the reality of the situation is, you're telling me they're scared regardless of what the stats are. Not really. I’m agreeing that parents will be afraid for their children regardless of the stats, and are unlikely to believe…

> What I am saying is that we need to accept that this is the environment, and if we want less invasive technical solutions to problems people think are real, and which you cannot prove are not, then we need to create them.

And what I'm saying is that this is a giant waste of time because if someone has a phobia about their kid getting abducted, that phobia will not go away just because Apple started scanning photos.

You want people to come up with a technical solution, but you don't even know to define what a "solution" is. How will we measure that solution absent statistics? How will we know if it's working or not? Okay, Apple starts scanning photos. Are we done? Has that solved the problem?

We don't know if that's enough, because people's fears here aren't based on the real world, they're based on Hollywood abduction movies, and those movies are still going to get made after Apple starts scanning photos.

You are completely correct that the stats are insufficient to convince these people. But you're also completely wrong in assuming that there is some kind of escape hatch or technological miracle that anyone can pull off to make those fears go away, because in your own words: "parents will be afraid for their children regardless of the stats."

If Apple's policy reduces abuse by 90%, they'll still be afraid. If it reduces it by 10%, they'll still be afraid. There is no technological solution that will ease their fear, because it's not about the stats.

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I'm open to being proven wrong that predation is a serious problem that needs drastic intervention. I'm open to evidence that suggests that encryption is a big enough problem that we need to come up with a technological solution. I just want to see some actual evidence. People being scared of things is not evidence, that's not something we can have a productive conversation about.

If we're going to create a "solution", then we need to know what the problem is, what the weak points are, and what metrics we're using to figure out whether or not we're making progress.

If that's not on the table, then also in your words, we need to "accept that this is the environment" and stop trying to pretend that coming up with technical solutions will do anything to reduce calls to weaken encryption or insert back doors.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#597

Seems to me that a 1x1 pixel image tag pointing at an image matching one of the signatures would be enough to trigger some kind of action, even if the end user doesn't see that single pixel. What then, does your phone get seized automatically? Of course the civil disobedience way of dealing with this would be to find an entirely safe image which matches the hash so that every website can safely embed such an image an…

I’m shocked that on a website filled with engineers, developers and myriad other hackers, many of whom seem to be outraged by this level of invasiveness, no one is suggesting direct action. How far will people let this continue while standing back and doing nothing? Rights are the things you’re willing to fight for. If all you’re willing to do is make a vaguely angry post on a forum, then that’s all you’ll end up with.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#598

Maybe I'm an overly-sensitive person but I really can't get comfortable with a neural network looking over my shoulder, spying on me 24/7. My parents gave me privacy and treated me with respect when I was a child. Now I'm an adult, and in a way it's like I have less privacy than when I was a kid. And the entities violating my privacy have way more power than my parents. I want to continue working with technology, but…

I could have written this comment myself, albeit less eloquently.

That is a very accurate representation of how I feel about this, too. I enjoy building apps, but I don't know that I can keep using these devices.

I was looking forward to upgrading to the new hardware in the fall, but now I'm not sure I can stomach the implications of buying a new device that may at any point start policing what I do far beyond what I'd accepted at the time of purchase.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#599
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their fear is real, but it can not be solved by any technological invention or policy change, including Apple's current system. Because you're telling me that they're scared regardless of what the reality of the situation is, you're telling me they're scared regardless of what the stats are. Not really. I’m agreeing that parents will be afraid for their children regardless of the stats, and are unlikely to believe…

> What I am saying is that we need to accept that this is the environment, and if we want less invasive technical solutions to problems people think are real, and which you cannot prove are not, then we need to create them. And what I'm saying is that this is a giant waste of time because if someone has a phobia about their kid getting abducted, that phobia will not go away just because Apple started scanning photos.…

> But you're also completely wrong in assuming that there is some kind of escape hatch or technological miracle that anyone can pull off to make those fears go away,

I can’t be wrong about that since I’m not claiming that anywhere or assuming it.

> because in your own words: "parents will be afraid for their children regardless of the stats."

Given that I wrote this, why would you claim that I think otherwise?

> There is no technological solution that will ease their fear, because it's not about the stats.

Agreed, except that I go further and claim that the stats are not sufficient, so making about the stats can’t solve the problem.

> People being scared of things is not evidence,

It’s evidence of fear. Fear is real, but it’s not a measure of severity or probability.

> that's not something we can have a productive conversation about.

I don’t see why we can’t take into account people’s fears.

> If we're going to create a "solution", then we need to know what the problem is, what the weak points are, and what metrics we're using to figure out whether or not we're making progress.

Yes. One of those metrics could be ‘in what ways does this compromise privacy’, and another could be ‘in what ways does this impede child abuse use cases’. I suspect Apple is trying to solve for those metrics.

Perhaps someone else can do better.

> If that's not on the table, then also in your words, we need to "accept that this is the environment"

This part is unclear.

> stop trying to pretend that coming up with technical solutions will do anything to reduce calls to weaken encryption or insert back doors.

It’s unclear why you would say anyone is pretending this, least of all me. I have wholeheartedly agreed with you that these calls are ‘evergreen’.

I want solutions to problems like the child abuse use cases, such that when calls to weaken encryption or insert back doors are made as they always will be, we don’t have to.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#600
post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I am saying is that we need to accept that this is the environment, and if we want less invasive technical solutions to problems people think are real, and which you cannot prove are not, then we need to create them. And what I'm saying is that this is a giant waste of time because if someone has a phobia about their kid getting abducted, that phobia will not go away just because Apple started scanning photos.…

> But you're also completely wrong in assuming that there is some kind of escape hatch or technological miracle that anyone can pull off to make those fears go away, I can’t be wrong about that since I’m not claiming that anywhere or assuming it. > because in your own words: "parents will be afraid for their children regardless of the stats." Given that I wrote this, why would you claim that I think otherwise? > Ther…

> except that I go further and claim that the stats are not sufficient, so making about the stats can’t solve the problem.

Statistics are a reflection of reality. When you say that the stats don't matter, you are saying that the reality doesn't matter. Just that people are scared.

You need to go another step further than you are currently going, and realize that any technological "solution" will only be affecting the reality, and by extension will only be affecting the stats. And we both agree that the stats can't solve the problem.

It's not that making this about the stats will solve the problem. It won't. But neither will any technological change. You can not solve an irrational fear by making reality safer.

----

Let's say we abandon this fight and roll over and accept Apple moving forward with scanning. Do you honestly believe that even one parent is going to look at that and say, "okay, that's enough, I'm not scared of child predators anymore."? Can you truthfully tell me that you think the political landscape and the hostility towards encryption would change at all?

And if not, how can you float compromise as a political solution? What does a "solution" to an irrational fear even look like? How will we tell that the solution is working?

You say the stats don't matter; then we might as well give concerned parents fake "magic" bracelets and tell them that they make kids impossible to kidnap. Placebo bracelets won't reduce actual child abuse of course, but as you keep reiterating, actual child abuse numbers are not why these people are afraid. Heck, placebo bracelets might help reduce parent's fear more than Apple's system, since placebo bracelets would be a constantly visible reminder to the parents that they don't need to be afraid, and all of Apple's scanning happens invisibly behind the scenes where it's easy to forget.

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> I want solutions to problems like the child abuse use cases, such that when calls to weaken encryption or insert back doors are made as they always will be, we don’t have to.

Out of curiosity, how will you prove to these people that your solutions are sufficient and that they work as substitutes for weakening encryption? How will you prove to these people that your solutions are enough?

Will you use stats? Appeal to logic?

You almost completely understand the entire situation right now, you just haven't connected the dots that all of your technological "solutions" are subject to the same problems as the current debate.

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