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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#591

Post by jdminhbg »

peytn wrote: post #509
jdminhbg wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've changed the rules for every single part of life and society because of this massive emergency, with no idea what the long-term consequences of doing so might be. I'm not sure why the FDA should be excluded.

The FDA has a process in place as per the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Reauthorization Act of 2013. If you find that legislation inadequate in some way, I think following due process to change it is the way to go. If how we handle pandemics should be more agile, let’s get legislation behind that. I don’t think jerking our knees over an ethics safeguard that led to a pause in administration of a vaccine that…

It's pretty hard to take this seriously given the total lack of legislative participation in business closure, school closure, mask mandates, etc.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#592

Post by sdenton4 »

sergiotapia wrote: post #569
jaegerpicker wrote: post #406

7 people out of 7 million dose's. That's why they stopped. My wife and I got the J&J shot on Saturday so I'm directly at risk and I'd take it everytime even if the risk was 10 times what it currently is. I've already seen a bunch of anit-vaxers referring to this in new articles this morning. So let's see, 1 in a million chance that the vaccine will make you sick (only 1 person has died so far, which is terrible but i…

Question for you, if you like those odds, why get the vaccine at all? If you're not obese covid won't do anything to you except give you a lil flu. Curious about your answer.

1) Vaccination is also about stopping the overall spread of infections. Vaccination is for the greater good, not just your own good.

2) It's still very possible to have a Very Bad Time with covid if you're not obese.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#593

Post by thelean12 »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #586
thelean12 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is a disservice to outright label people as anti-vaxers simply for questioning the risk-calculus of vaccines. It's the same idea though, and should still be called out. It's people who have unqualified medical opinions, and who are then often spreading that opinion to others as if it's useful. Let the agencies figure it out, pay attention to the latest recommendations from them, and go with that. Anythin…

In 2012 if someone decided against their doctor's advice not to take an opioid which the FDA had greenlit as safe in far too many cases, would you call that "blind leading the blind"? Iatrogenesis rivals strokes as a cause of death. Most doctors are just slavishly following official doctrines from authorities, and sometimes those authorities get it wrong. We don't even have to look to the Before Covid Times to see ex…

> sometimes those authorities get it wrong

Yes. That's correct. That doesn't change what I said.

Answer me this: why do you think unqualified individuals are better suited to get it right?

Just because there are examples in the past of people who went against the recommendations who ended up being right, doesn't mean you should take everything else into your own hands. Unless, of course, it's literally your job.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#594

Post by tomjen3 »

HWR_14 wrote: post #556
kodah wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a virus that has 98% survival rate You know, for all the continual fear mongering about coronavirus last year, the constant reminders of who was most at risk, the hyper importance put on masks and cleanliness, etc it is shocking to see things put this way now.

That's because long term consequences of COVID are real, and worrying just about the worst case (the death rate) is like saying that data leaks are no big deal because only 2% of them lead to the loss of their customer's life savings.

I am not so sure those long term effects (except those that lead to blood cloths) are real.

A quick duck duck go shows that these are the symptoms:

    Tiredness or fatigue
    Difficulty thinking or concentrating (sometimes referred to as “brain fog”)
    Headache
    Loss of smell or taste
    Dizziness on standing
    Fast-beating or pounding heart (also known as heart palpitations)
    Chest pain
    Difficulty breathing or shortness of breath
    Cough
    Joint or muscle pain
    Depression or anxiety
    Fever
    Symptoms that get worse after physical or mental activities
Apart from the loss of smell, those are all things that are hard to quantify and could be something you are not aware of until you start looking for them. At which point you might become anexious and really start to notice them.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#595

Post by AndrewBissell »

kodah wrote: post #445
jaegerpicker wrote: post #406

7 people out of 7 million dose's. That's why they stopped. My wife and I got the J&J shot on Saturday so I'm directly at risk and I'd take it everytime even if the risk was 10 times what it currently is. I've already seen a bunch of anit-vaxers referring to this in new articles this morning. So let's see, 1 in a million chance that the vaccine will make you sick (only 1 person has died so far, which is terrible but i…

> a virus that has 98% survival rate You know, for all the continual fear mongering about coronavirus last year, the constant reminders of who was most at risk, the hyper importance put on masks and cleanliness, etc it is shocking to see things put this way now.

The actual survival rate is far higher than 98%, that's just the number you get if you use confirmed cases as the denominator.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#596

Post by Verdex »

cogman10 wrote: post #335
jdminhbg wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a vaccine for a disease that has killed over half a million people in the US over the past year, not a new breast implant. The rules are not some holy writ handed down from above, they are our way of trying to properly manage risk. When the situation changes, the rules can also change.

This is what's been frustrating for me with world health organizations. I get the need to make sure medicine is safe and effective, and we absolutely should follow those to a T when it comes to new medicines on the market in non-emergency situations. However, that's not the case here. vaccines are well studied in general and J&J is one of the more "normally developed" vaccines on the market. After generally ensuring…

> there should have been a damn good reason to pull it even temporarily

And the damn good reason was that there's a bunch of people out there who don't want to take the vaccine for political reasons. And there's a smaller amount of people who don't want to take the vaccine because they're uninteresting in taking a new vaccine. They're looking for reasons to validate their fears.

If you just keep pushing the vaccine even though a bad thing happened to a small number of people, then there will be people who use this as an excuse to avoid all of the vaccines completely.

Take down the vaccine and make a bunch of lab coats spend a hectic two weeks double checking some figures and people will feel listened to and they'll have less arguments to not get the vaccine. The vaccine that you're taking is as safe as it can be. After all when we saw a problem we did something about it.

This is 100% about optics and PR AND that's 100% necessary right now in order to get the job done.

> I lay the blame primarily on anti-vaxxers

Don't even talk about anti-vaxxers right now. The only thing bringing up anti-vaxxers will do is grow that movement. The people who don't want the covid vaccine are not anti-vaxxers. They get the flu vaccine and they get their children vaccines. They're only afraid of the new covid vaccine. They don't like anti-vaxxers any more than you do, BUT if you call them that then some of them are going to decide they might as well join the anti-vaxxer movement.

These are two groups of people who I do not want to join forces. Covid hasn't exactly been a fun time, but I'm really not interested in seeing polio and friends come back.

Have rational debates, quit the name calling, go the extra mile to convince people who don't like your position to do something for the greater good. Otherwise, we're not going to see enough vaccinations to make a difference.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#597

Post by _Microft »

The section I have italicized here stood out in the statement from the FDA/CDC, in my opinion. This is not about putting vaccinations with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine on hold infinitely. For a good part, it seems to be about being aware of and prepared for this serious adverse effect, not to avoid it at all costs.

"Until that process is complete, we are recommending a pause in the use of this vaccine out of an abundance of caution. This is important, in part, to ensure that the health care provider community is aware of the potential for these adverse events and can plan for proper recognition and management due to the unique treatment required with this type of blood clot.", from https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0413-JJ-vaccine.htm...

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#598

Post by cbkeller »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #586
thelean12 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is a disservice to outright label people as anti-vaxers simply for questioning the risk-calculus of vaccines. It's the same idea though, and should still be called out. It's people who have unqualified medical opinions, and who are then often spreading that opinion to others as if it's useful. Let the agencies figure it out, pay attention to the latest recommendations from them, and go with that. Anythin…

In 2012 if someone decided against their doctor's advice not to take an opioid which the FDA had greenlit as safe in far too many cases, would you call that "blind leading the blind"? Iatrogenesis rivals strokes as a cause of death. Most doctors are just slavishly following official doctrines from authorities, and sometimes those authorities get it wrong. We don't even have to look to the Before Covid Times to see ex…

Deciding that your pain is well managed without opiates has always been a perfectly reasonable and medically-accepted option, and unsurprisingly there has never been any sort of social stigma against people who decline painkillers.

Most to the point, declining to take painkillers does not adversely impact other people's health.

This is not a good analogy.

eta: ironically, the problem with the opioid crisis was not too much regulation and oversight by "the authorities", but too little; too much freedom for doctors to prescribe stronger painkillers, and for patients to request them.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#599

Post by bluGill »

kevin_nisbet wrote: post #162
ars wrote: post #137

Message to anti-vaxxers: As you can see the government is very carefully tracking any kind of safety issues with vaccines. They are being open and telling you about issues despite people fearing it would cause vaccine hesitancy. So this should actually give you more confidence in vaccine safety, because if there are problem, you will be informed.

Unfortunately I think the anti-vaxxers can twist the logic however they want. The government is putting on a show about how transparent they are to win trust... etc. I'm not sure how to get through that... from what I understand it takes alot of effort and time per person.

Sadly, as news papers discovered years ago, publishing corrections makes you seem less trust worthy than papers that never publish any, even though the later at best equal, and often worse.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#600

Post by paulcole »

benchaney wrote: post #410
paulcole wrote: post #383

Everyone posting here confidently saying that the FDA is clearly wrong is pretty disappointing to me. I think of all the comments about how "MBAs" and "marketing people" just don't get software development. And then I look at software development people who seem to think they clearly get medical research and regulation.

The problem is with how they are handling their data. You don’t have to know anything about biology per se to see the issue. It is entirely mathematical. By the way, the medical establishment has a terrible track record surround use of and understanding of statistics. I don’t think it’s right to suggest that self described experts are somehow infallible.

I'll take self-described experts who work at the FDA over self-described experts on a social media site like HN.
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