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You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

freddiedeboer.substack.com

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Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#591
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone name a time in history where the people censoring things turned out to be the "Good Guys"?

Your argument/trope fails for a simple reasons: "They" don't exist. * Here on HN we censor each other. * The US censors basic nudity. * Germany censors denying the Holocaust. * The patent office censors inventions. * Scientists have devised a peer-censorship system. * The police censors your attempts to distribute illegal material. * Banks censor your funds to ISIS. ... the list goes on and on and on.

Almost half of those are indeed bad guys, and much of the rest does not fit under the normal meaning of the word censorship.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#592
post #152

So, what is extreme left to you? Which groups, existent groups, are they? This whole line of discussion seems to consist of some rich false equivalency being mediated by presuming the existence of equivalent opposing forces and then making them appear equal in size and threat by not talking about who they actually are.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26432675.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a shortsighted take IMO. "Fringe" websites are growing rapidly while engagement on the big, normal websites is declining or slowing down. The problem is people want to talk about these things, and if that's what people want to talk about they're going to go where they can talk about them. This is directly addressed in the article (when we say we want to ban hate speech, what we really want to ban is hate, but…

>"Fringe" websites are growing rapidly while engagement on the big, normal websites is declining or slowing down. source?

Better question: If increasing, is it because more topics of conversation are getting binned as 'fringe'? Or are extremists merely circumventing centralized efforts at blocking by moving around, which is exactly what those anti-censorship weenies like me jave been saying will be the inevitable result?

The problem you ignore or quash never goes away. It just gets harder and more distributed.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just a few people explaining how they de-radicalized. Now imagine the opposite, someone with some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules. They now become more radicalized. Due to the number of people constantly being suspended/banned I think there is a greater chance that these people will become radicalized, than someone will realize they ha…

> some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules A "slightly bad opinion" has to be more than "slightly bad" to break hate speech rules. If you feel a platform is overzealous in enforcing hate speech rules, don't use it. Or maybe ask yourself some questions before moving out. EDIT: the rain of downvotes is telling as usual.

Who is making the rules?

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#595
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some slightly bad opinion suddenly finds themselves shut out of the main platforms because of hate speech rules A "slightly bad opinion" has to be more than "slightly bad" to break hate speech rules. If you feel a platform is overzealous in enforcing hate speech rules, don't use it. Or maybe ask yourself some questions before moving out. EDIT: the rain of downvotes is telling as usual.

That’s not true. Not being attracted to transgender people is enough to get banned on Reddit. I was banned from r/asktransgender for telling a girl in a relationship with a pre-transition MtF person that it doesn’t make sense to call herself a lesbian (since sexual orientation is based on sex and not gender)

Why would you barge into someone else's community and police their use of terminology? Why would you think anyone cares about what you have to say on that topic?

At best it's an annoying distraction; at worst it makes people feel like shit for needing to constantly justify their existence.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#596

My reading from the outside is, the left needs to realize (I'm sure it applies to the right equally as well) that scolding people into guilt is not a viable approach to affect action or to change perceptions when you're dealing with adults. Neither does boxing people into this, that and that category do any good. Like if all you want to do is dehumanize those guys so you can happily insult / hurt them without hurting…

While shaming and scolding might be overused, it's a legitimate tool in some cases. The problem is that a lot of sjw are punching down while telling themselves they are punching up because the person is white.

How often did I end up in a room full of urban, university educated people looking down on the white rural common folks.

The common people are not always common by choice. It's not necessarily by choice that they can't follow wonkish academic stories about the history of race to understand modern issues. It's not necessarily by choice that they can't see all the shades of gray of advanced morality and sort out complex issues about gender and race. These are the type of people that need to see a moral guide every week just to follow a simple morality where they can't process much beyond stereotypes.

The best AIs out there are not able to simulate advanced empathy. It is highly complex and involves multilevel recursive counterfactual meta-cognitive logic (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K4eDzqS2rbcBDsCLZ/unrolling-...). Given the level of complexity, I don't expect everyone to be able to intuitively get it.

A lot of people are intellectually underprivileged and too often, sjw like to scorn and mock them for their handicap.

The way I see it, Trumpism is made of an evil right wing elite that has managed to capture a large swath of simple minded folks party because these simple folks were pushed away from more reasonable political affiliation.

Populism doesn't have to be negative. The US constitution starts with We the People, not We the Scholars. Yes populism means unsophisticated views but these could be aligned with reasonable policy as much as right wing policy if the left didn't show so much contempt for the intellectually and morally disadvantaged. Democracy means you need unsophisticated people to vote with you to win elections.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#597

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

There are different types of extremists, and only one type of extremism is targeted by the mainstream broadcast sites. It's tiring hearing the "megaphone" meme. It's a loaded term and means more than its literal meaning. There are extremists on the left and the right. If you only only target extremism on the right, you might think you're doing a service, but in fact you're going to make the problem worse. Here come t…

1. In what way does it make it worse? 2. Do you have some common examples of left wing extremism that are rampant and unchecked? I have many examples in my personal Facebook feed of right wing extremism, but few or perhaps no left wing extremism, despite many of my right wing friends voicing a similar complaint.

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#598
post #542

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

Can anyone name a time in history where the people censoring things turned out to be the "Good Guys"?

Yes. 1945 post-war Germany saw mass-censoring as part of the Allied de-Nazification program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification

"the US Army continued its efforts to denazify Germany through control of German media. The Information Control Division of the US Army had by July 1946 taken control of 37 German newspapers, six radio stations, 314 theaters, 642 cinemas, 101 magazines, 237 book publishers, and 7,384 book dealers and printers."

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#599
post #542

You can't censor it away completely, but you can help the redeemable extremists __know__ they're indulging in extremism by forcing them to go to fringe websites rather than allow them to stay on Twitter and Facebook as if nothing is wrong. As for the "deplorables" who know what they're doing and will never question it or feel any remorse, we should not be giving them a megaphone. sources[0]: I was susceptible to extr…

Can anyone name a time in history where the people censoring things turned out to be the "Good Guys"?

Censorship of child pornography?

Re: You can't censor away extremism or any other problem

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Popper part is easy: In the 1970s, during the student revolts, many right leaning people (who would be called fascists these days) got platforms on talk shows and politely debated their left wing counterparts. It did not lead to the Fourth Reich, on the contrary, public opinion has shifted to the left in and after the 70s. The right wing backlash you see now is a direct result of the insanity and totalitarianism…

You can draw a line from rush limbaugh to tuker carlson, they built a legion of people who they encouraged not to think for themselves and now they are sicking them on the world >insanity and totalitarianism citation needed? Thats literally the same line limbaugh used in the 70s

Would you please stop perpetuating flamewar and posting low-quality ideological battle comments to HN? You've been doing a ton of it on HN, unfortunately, and it's not what this site is for. Regardless of how right your underlying positions are or you feel they are, discussion here needs to be better than this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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