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Activists who embrace nuclear power

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Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#591
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still not adjusting for actual life (solar ain't making nameplate power 15 years in, for instance). No one claimed an order of magnitude better. Nuclear looks somewhat more sustainable than renewable, and it can do some things renewables can't. We should be doing both .

It's just so funny to read comments on here. How can one even imagine a space-faring civilization powered by wind mills?

I suggest this is a problem with your imagination, not a problem with wind turbines.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#592
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>There are plenty of sites that would happily accept more nuclear being built, but all other forms of energy have undercut the cost of nuclear. >Honestly ... it isn't just about cost. Nuclear is expensive but it isn't prohibitively expensive. The big picture is we know that nuclear can power an economy, it does not emit global warming gasses, and also places a tiny footprint on the surrounding ecosystem. What do you…

>So you're including mining for solar/wind but not nuclear? We have hundreds of years of "waste" that could be burned before we would ever need to mine anything. Only thing stopping it is a gross combination of politics and fear :p

You are excluding the materials of the nuclear power plants themselves, and just considering nuclear waste? What an unfair comparison.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#593
post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's underground salt caverns. This is extremely feasible and has been done for decades with natural gas.

How many Gigawatt hours of underground H2 storage are currently deployed? What company can I call to install 1 GWh of hydrogen storage?

Ah, the good old "if it hasn't happened yet it can't happen" argument.

I'll come back at you: what technological component involved in underground storage of hydrogen is not already demonstrated?

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in nuclear. There's definitely no way now to insure a new plant and make money. Try as they may, even Duke couldn't break ground on any new US project because there hasn't been money in it for about 40 years. The economics kill it and there aren't going to be anymore PWR/BWRs, with the possible exceptions of BCH, 2 PWRs at Turkey Point, and 1 ESBWR at North Anna. Renewables will likely undercut them all to c…

Will anyone ever finish VC Summer? Maybe after they will have done Vogtle right?

Very unlikely. It would not be economical to finish it even at the estimated cost left when they abandoned it, and since then it's been degrading in place.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#595

i just dont buy it. hypothetically, there is a nuclear power plant design that is perfectly safe in that it will never melt down. but there is no nuclear power plant that produces no waste. as long as you are producing waste, you are depending on bumbling bureaucrats to properly dispose of that waste and manage the waste often for extremely long periods of time. its just not an ideal situation. the government cant ev…

>> meanwhile, solar is safe to set up, safe to operate, and there is no radioactive waste to manage Only some giant amount (only 300x compare to nuclear) of non-radioactive waste that ends up in poor countries. Do you care about that? https://www.solarpowerinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2... https://www.wired.com/story/solar-panels-are-starting-to-die... https://www.technocracy.news/solar-energy-produces-300-ti…

That last link is hilarious. It cited a study that found that the mass of solar panels is 300x the mass of SPENT NUCLEAR FUEL. Because, of course, pound-for-pound a solar panel and spent nuclear fuel have the same toxicity?

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#596
post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's underground salt caverns. This is extremely feasible and has been done for decades with natural gas.

How many Gigawatt hours of underground H2 storage are currently deployed? What company can I call to install 1 GWh of hydrogen storage?

It's been done for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_hydrogen_storage

It's pretty well-established tech at this point.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#597
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the full context for CA's rolling blackouts, although it's true that the Navajo Generating Station did sell to California. The California rolling blackouts were back in the summer, when solar energy production is highest. If reliance on solar were the whole story, those blackouts would have gotten worse and worse from summer through fall and winter. Instead, they only lasted a total of about thr…

Thanks for the great posts. Have you seen any numbers for the life expectancy of grid connected batteries? I heard A solar project in Hawaii expects to replace the batteries every 5 years with daily cycles. So for California it would be $111 million /yr in battery costs. Manageable, but not a trivial amount to be factoring in to the cost of firming up the capacity of wind/solar.

You're welcome!

The life expectancy is a really important point, and one I hadn't taken into account in my calculations! The thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26231021 talks a bit about this. Laptop Li-ion batteries typically last only a few hundred cycles, but presumably you can do better than that if that's what you're optimizing for; Sir Bearington claims 1500 to 2000 discharge cycles, which sounds vaguely plausible and matches the 5 years you're suggesting, but I'd be interested in a deeper dive. Do you know the name of the Hawai‘i project?

I think US$111 billion over 5 years works out to US$22 billion per year, not US$111 million per year, which is probably just past the "manageable but not trivial" level.

I mean, suppose California needs 45 GW of power at the worst moments, as the CAISO report linked above suggests, and you want to provide that with nuclear power at a ballpark 01970s figure of US$1.50/watt (rather than the current contentious figures of around US$7/watt). Further, let's suppose that USA nuclear power's typical 90% capacity factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor#Nuclear_power_... is not something you can control (for example by scheduling refuelings to not coincide with summer) and that opex is zero. So you need 50 GWe of nameplate capacity, which hypothetically costs US$75B using 01970s practices and wages. If we simply divide by 30 years (rather than using debt financing and calculating an IRR) we get US$2.5 billion per year. At modern USA nuclear construction costs of US$7 per peak electric watt we end up with US$17.5 billion per year, which would still be less than the US$22 billion cost of replacing US$111 billion of batteries every 5 years. Debt financing makes these numbers a little better, but not a lot, and it reduces the cost of short-term projects like 5-year batteries a lot more than it reduces the cost of medium-term projects like 30-year nuclear plants.

(Does that seem backwards? At 5% interest, an infinite-lifetime annuity can be purchased for 21 years of its yearly earnings. If the annuity expires after 30 years, like a nuclear plant, the NPV is reduced to 16 years' worth of earnings, and if it expires after 5 years, like a battery, it's worth 4.5 years of earnings. So if you debt-finance your nuclear plants you end up paying 46% of your money to the bank and only 54% to GE or whoever builds the plants, while if you debt-finance your 5-year-lifetime batteries you pay 91% of your money to Panasonic and only 9% to the bank. So a 5% yearly discount rate drops the value of nuclear-plant joules by about 40% because most of them are so far in the future.)

Right now, batteries and other storage are only used a couple of hours a day at most, rather than the 22 hours or so that add up to my "million MWh" figure, so the battery price is actually an order of magnitude lower. (And we can expect that when we're just paying the cost of recycling old batteries into new batteries, rather than the cost of mining all that lithium, the price will go down.) So, right now, Li-ion batteries are far more economical than nuclear plants, but to bear the base load over days of low sun, either:

· Li-ion batteries will have to get substantially cheaper;

· wind, other forms of generation, or other storage technologies like lead-acid and compressed-air storage would have to be able to supply most of the load, as gas and coal do at present;

· some of the batteries would have to be borrowed from other uses (such as electric vehicles) that pay for most of their cost;

· demand response and efficiency improvements will have to be able to cut demand by a factor of two or three; or

· some combination of these.

For example, you could very plausibly imagine a conjunction of Li-ion batteries getting 25% cheaper than the US$111/kWh (US$31/MJ) price cited above, down to US$83/kWh (US$23/MJ); wind supplying 25% of power demand when the sun is down or clouded; drawing on an additional 30% "spinning reserve" of parked Teslas feeding energy back to the grid; and demand response reducing off-peak power usage by 25%. So our 45 GW of power demand drops to 33.8 GW from demand response; parked Teslas supply 23% of that, and wind supplies another 25% of it; and so the demand on the utility-scale storage plants is only 18 GW. 24 hours at 18 GW is 430 GWh, which costs only US$36 billion rather than the US$111 billion cited above.

We can hope to do a lot better than that, but it seems like an eminently achievable set of improvements.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#598
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, this is good stuff! Just to clarify one thing: > You're comparing figures on generation to storage . Yes, a big nuclear plant that generates 2.5 GW of electricity often costs $15 billion … buying 2 gigawatt hours grants you the ability to store enough energy to output 2 GW for a duration of 1 hour I'm clear on the distinction between power and storage capacity; that's why I said, "Li-ion was about US$111/kWh…

> the other 12 hours, so if you wanted to feed the entire California demand from expanded solar generation, you'd need to store up 420 gigawatt hours (1.5 PJ). You'd need 12 kWh of batteries per (average) kilowatt, which would bring the price of storage to above US$13000 per kW at the battery prices I found two years ago, which is slightly higher than the price of thermal power generation. And you'll have to pay this…

Cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26308189.

If freight trains are what we're talking about, solar-powered freight trains might only run during the day rather than the night.

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