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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#591

Post by ubersync »

dkonofalski wrote: post #251
pennaMan wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before Apple blessed us with it's ground breaking technology to restrict the software you are allowed to have on your own device we did just fine getting software on our devices using a file system and the internet.

You may have but the rest of the world did so with a lot of hand-wringing and a boatload of viruses, toolbars, malware, and everything else. As someone who has worked in IT and in tech support, I get and agree with what Apple has done.

I went into your history and ALL of your comments are for defending Apple on Apple related stories or defending Apple on non-apple related stories. You are clearly an Apple shill. How much are you getting paid?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#592

Post by jevgeni »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #361
nickysielicki wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not about the outcome, it’s about reasoning from first principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you dislike the outcome. Nobody has to buy an iPhone, iPad, or MacBook. Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem they want to create. Their success in mobile computing is arguably a direct result of their closed ecosystem.

"it’s about reasoning from first principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you dislike the outcome" This sounds an awfull lot like the though process of religious zealots and extremists. Ignore the real world, consequences be damned, ideology comes first. There is no way we could make an error of judgement. Thats how you get a famine and 50 million dead in China. "Apple has the right to c…

What are these platitudes? Of course they have a legal and moral right to do so, otherwise it wouldn’t be put into law.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#593

Post by 40four »

These conversations always rapidly devolve into the same old generic iOS versus Android nonsense. But I'd like to try to keep a super narrow scope here. The specific problem Epic and others are fighting here is "App Store payment system and control over app downloads"

Now to be fair, as far as 'App store payments' goes, both Google & Apple charge the 30% fee on all transactions. The reason Epic is battling Apple here mostly has to do with the 'walled garden', and the fact Apple's 'control over app downloads' is totally locked down. Epic avoids the Google play 30% fee by having users side-load the APK, so that's a fight for another day I suppose.

Now, for the 30% fee problem. Does anyone really think that is fair an equitable? Come again? They hover up 3/10ths of all business transactions? It just seems so obvious to me that the answer is absolutely not. There is no way I can twist my brain to believe there is any justification for that. If the issue is that it costs Apple (& Google) a lot of money to maintain servers and infrastructure to provide the app store services, then there are other ways to charge developers to cover this cost, and even make some profit.

Apple charges $100 a year for the 'Apple Developer Program'. This yearly fee model is the fair way to do this I think. You could add more tiers too this that scale with usage. $100 for the entry level package, and that covers 'X' amount of usage. There could be enterprise tiers for huge customers like Epic. They are using more of the resources of the app store, then they should pay more. I'm sure Epic would be happy to pay, IDK I'm just making up a number, something like $500K a year for their developer license instead of 30% of every transaction.

I'm just spitballing here, I've not fully formed all these ideas, and I don't know what fair pricing for tiers & usage would exactly look like. But I think most of us can agree a system like that would be much more fair and equitable. I have just never heard a convincing argument of why Apple & Google deserves to own 3/10ths of all the business on their platforms.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#594

Post by echelon »

dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

> I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon ...

This doesn't happen on Android.

> My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different app stores

This is because game companies want to be middlemen in games distribution. Games have communities, chat, matchmaking, patches, DLC, DRM, sales and pricing engines, analytics, online gaming, and a lot more complexity than your AirBNB or CashApp.

It's also happening with streaming. Once game steaming gains adoption, you'll see it there too.

You're not going to stop this by defending Apple's moat.

Forcing Apple to open up lets small developers get around the Apple tax and draconian and arbitrary review process that hinders their growth. It also lets people control the devices they purchased, and defends software freedoms broadly by discouraging the Apple behavior across the board.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#595

Post by kyriakos »

AYBABTME wrote: post #57
aboringusername wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for Epic) no way Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for FB) yes way So Apple is allowed to get its own way, 100% of the time, no questions asked, what they want is what they get end of (by virtue of holding all the cards and owning the platform they dictate the rules on) How about no? You can play by your rules in your sandbox, but Epic has a right t…

What if consumers like it like that: one sandbox curated by Apple?

There are alternative stores on android but no one forces you to use them. The same will apply to iPhone

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#596

Post by cmdli »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #71
dleslie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. On the other hand, Apple is acting as a platform owner and demanding that they continue to act as the sole store curator on their platform. I do not see the hypocrisy.

How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same argument if Apple starts blocking websites?

As a user, I'm free to buy Android if I want to. I buy iPhones specifically because software developers are forced to go through Apple's more strict guidelines (see the Apple/Facebook fight for a recent example of why I personally like it). I can trust the software I use much more on Apple's platform.

I want to have the freedom to buy and use such a platform, and Apple wants the freedom to sell and maintain such a platform. The entire process falls apart if Apple is forced to allow other App Stores. Why should the court restrict those freedoms and break this consumer benefit?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#597

Post by valparaiso »

fbelzile wrote: post #455
EveYoung wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But users already can by an Android or Linux phone instead. It's not like Apple has the monopoly on smartphones.

You're missing the point. Nobody is arguing that Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market. The problem is that Apple built an artificial monopoly in the distribution of apps by making the App Store the only curator of the platform. People who decided to purchase an iPhone with an iOS license should have the right to use the device to it's full extent (along with being able to fix it themselves if something break…

> The problem is that Apple built an artificial monopoly in the distribution of apps by making the App Store the only curator of the platform.

You need to watch Epic Games vs. Apple hearing from September 2020. This argument was already rejected by judge. She stated closed platforms (walled gardens) were before Apple's fore decades and are legal types of business. She also told about Nintendo/PlayStation/Xbox same closed stores.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#598

Post by jevgeni »

kbenson wrote: post #503
zepto wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those had an actual monopoly - literally no alternative service provider.

Anti-competitive behavior does not require a Monopoly. A monopoly is just a specific type of situation which makes anti-competitive behavior easy and incentivized. Anti-competitive behavior that harms consumers is the problem (and question). Whether Apple is a monopoly or not is really besides the point.

It’s still difficult to argue that Apple refusing to subsidize Epic store is anti competitive

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#599

Post by kosievdmerwe »

yladiz wrote: post #559
colinmhayes wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what Epic's intentions are. Allowing creation of 3rd party stores is great and consumers and developers. I'll continue to support the organization whose incentives are aligned with mine.

I get why it's great for developers, but why for consumers? You'll almost have a situation exactly like the one that exists on Windows for gaming, where you have to install any number of stores to get the games that _only_ exist in those stores. You may think that it will give you or other consumers more choice, but it's a choice only for developers and it's at the expense of consumers.

Well, as a consumer, if I could install Kindle through a third party app store, I'd be able to buy books directly in the app rather than having to go through a dance to get to a browser to buy a book.

This is because Apple would charge Amazon 15/30% to clear the transaction while Apple Books can be both more convenient and doesn't have to give up a large chunk of change to someone else.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#600

Post by wvenable »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #382
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App store monopolies have not meaningfully hindered this. To your first example: Most malware infections on PCs today are distributed by the Chrome Web Store. (Preventing malicious extensions was Google's excuse for blocking third party install... but since they don't even attempt to control malware they distribute first party, it's hilarious.) If they tell you they have a virus, open their Chrome extensions tab, rem…

Apple's own store proves this incorrect. Apple's App Store has VERY few instance's of Malware (at least in the sense of exploiting security issues). The App Store does have an ongoing issue with dark patterns and subscription fraud, no doubt but in general Apple's App Store is the by far the best and safest App Store for consumer. I'm an app developer and the App Store has more than it's share of issues like discover…

Isn't more a question of sandboxing than the app store itself? Installed apps on iOS just can't do every much.

What is considered Android/iOS malware these days is much more tame than what malware used to be. A cryptolocker on iOS is basically impossible.

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