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Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

theguardian.com

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Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#591

Post by Noos »

theshrike79 wrote: post #494
analyte123 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you basically need to own a home to have an electric car right now. Many blue-collar workers who have to drive around a lot in the middle of nowhere are also excluded at least for the next few years.

If your job requires you to drive hundreds of km in the outback, then EVs definitely aren't for you and won't be in a long time.

Do you not understand there are these things called "industrial parks" "distribution centers" or "factories" that are often not put anywhere near houses due to noise, odor, and other reasons? Many of them in my town are often 30 + min trips one way down roads where there are barely any houses, let alone places that could host a charger.

Another example; one time I worked for an inventory service which are the people who count goods in stores and other places. We often spent 45 minutes plus getting to stores, and one particularly wonderful refrigerated warehouse was located in another state.

You all need to get there is a whole other world besides people who can work remote or knowledge professionals who walk ten minutes to their 9-5 job. In my career many people often commute from 30+ one way minute drives because there's only so many places where you can actually work at.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#592

Post by gambiting »

buran77 wrote: post #546
gambiting wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>This just confirms what I said above Well that was the point ;-) >>And that's the crux of the matter, most people buy hybrids because they can't charge at home. Well, that bit I don't really believe. I'd love to see some data about it. If you're buying a plug in hybrid and don't have the plug-in part.....then what are you even doing. Like I said I understand that in UK the tax structure is beneficial regardless of…

> Well, that bit I don't really believe. I'd love to see some data about it As you said in a comment below: > According to Volvo's own data 60% of PHEV buyers never plug them in You confirm what I said in my unpopular comment above, on paper PHEVs reduce emissions by a lot but in reality, as a fleet, the numbers are far worse than suggested. Many are company cars because the company wanted the tax cuts and subsidies,…

Ok, I was asking specifically for data that shows that people buy hybrids because they don't have somewhere to charge(rather than, for instance, that they get a nice tax discount by doing so). In my other comment I pointed out that on my street there's someone else with a PHEV and I have never seen him charge it, even though he could easily do so - private driveway, plenty of space, if he wanted to then he could.

And while I agree with you in general, I think you obsess with the official numbers a little bit too much. In my previous mercedes AMG the official numbers were something like 6L/100km, in normal use it was hard to get under 12L/100km. Those numbers just don't mean anything.

And if you see somewhere that the fleet average for the XC60 T8 is just 7L/100km then that's frankly fantastic. It's a 2.2 tonne SUV with 400bhp. That's an incredible fuel consumption(as in - low) even if it's above the official numbers. Do you happen to know what the fleet average for the XC60 T6 is? That's the same petrol engine without the hybrid system(not the PHEV T6). Because I imagine that fleet average will be closer to 12-14L/100km than 7L/100km.

My point is that for most people who ever charge the car the PHEV is an improvement. It's those who don't charge it who are the problem, but I'm confident this is a problem of legislation and/or tax rabates.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#593

Post by theshrike79 »

Daho0n wrote: post #567
theshrike79 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building a gas station for peak capacity would mean building so many pumps that you never have to queue. Even when people leave their car by the pump while going to the bathroom or grab a slushie and some snacks.

That is a solved problem in most of the world. I have waited at a gas station at most 5 times in my life and never more than 2-4 minutes. Going to the bathroom or leaving the pump I have never seen anyone do. If I did I would turn off the pump at the big red STOP button as leaving the pump running unattended is illegal.

You can't leave the pump running outside of the US, the fuel nizzle won't lock.

I mean the people who fill up their car, and just leave the car at the pump.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#594

Post by theshrike79 »

whatever1 wrote: post #463
erikrothoff wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m literally a euro-peasant in my third floor apartment with street parking outside my third floor apartment window. The city has but up a bunch of charging parking stations on said street parking and it’s great. There are no gas stations on the ”island” (Södermalm, Stockholm) I live on, but a ton of electric street parking charging stations. I think the decentralisation of these types of charging stations will win…

Let's take Madrid as an example of a typical densely populated euro-city. ~ 3M population, half a million registered cars. I really don't see it economically, environmentally, or even technically viable to install a quarter million chargers to fix the battery charging problem.

Only if none of the 500k cars can be charged at home.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#595

Post by magicalhippo »

Daho0n wrote: post #579
magicalhippo wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No way could you charge every car that way. But surely the majority of those cars have a short commute. We have a BMW i3 which has a relatively small 33kWh battery, and we usually charge it less than twice per week. A car with a longer range wouldn't need to be charged that often.

>But surely the majority of those cars have a short commute. That is irrelevant. If you cannot always get a parking spot where you can charge then from time to time you would end up not being able to change when you absolutely need to. It's like parking at work and there's no charging available and you have to drive around for 20 minutes and turn up late for work. No, there's a need for either always available chargi…

I was thinking in terms of electrical capacity. A single street light turned LED light wouldn't be able to handle 20 cars charging.

Of course you'd still need a lot of charging points along the road.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#596

Post by oblio »

Noos wrote: post #578
oblio wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very narrow minded approach :-) People don't carry around 35kg of groceries each time they go to the local supermarket. They buy a tiny bit of what they need each day, walking back from home/school, since it takes so little time and often it's on the way, anyway. Carrying 2-5-6-7-8-10kg is quite easy.

Some people have a couple of kids, and need more groceries that can be done that way. Some times there is this thing called "inclement weather" which means it rains 2-3 days in a row and makes doing this miserable. Or you work a double shift and are too tired to get groceries, or you work 2nd shift and everything is closed on the way back except convenience stores. Or you get sick and can't actually go out to get foo…

I have kids. I know a lot of people that have kids. Again, narrow mindedness.

You don't just go to buy STRICTLY what you need today. You buy something like 10% over each time. Within several weeks of shopping you'll have a full fridge, heck, even a full pantry.

Then you only need to top up when you go each day. And I'm being generous, you can go every 2-3 days, even.

There are comfortable solution, you need two things:

1. An environment that helps (most European cities).

2. A bit of planning/flexibility/smarts.

If you don't have 1. you're dead in the water, from the start. If you don't have 2., well... get them :-)

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#597

Post by oblio »

impendia wrote: post #587
epistasis wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a frustrating form of this conversation with so many Americans. The concept of buying less than 40L of soda at a time, because presumably they drink many liters per day, is hard to overcome for some. They literally will not believe that it is possible to but a days worth of groceries every day, and get fresh, quality food. But the more people saying that it can be done, and is a superior way to shop, the mor…

In most American cities, going to the grocery store is kind of a pain. You have to drive somewhere, usually at least a mile or two. You have to find some place to park and walk across a huge parking lot. The store itself will be huge, if you're just getting three things you have to trek all the way across the store to retrieve them. And the lines at the checkout can be bad. As I mentioned in another comment, I had th…

Yeah, you need the right environment. Going against the grain will only cause pain and suffering...

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#598

Post by gbronner »

djrogers wrote: post #410
Loughla wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We priced out pickup trucks recently for shits and giggles (because we live in rural america and really have a decently often use for one). They're so expensive. And the dealer pushes the 84+ month loan to bring the payment down. Like, I get that it's a $450/month payment, and that's supposed to sound reasonable (it isn't reasonable, at 3/4 the cost of our mortgage). But it's for 8 years! There's no way this truck is…

> There's no way this truck is going to last that long. I agree with everything you said up til this point. Unless you crash into a brick wall, a modern pickup will last at least 20 years. Look on Craigslist or FB marketplace for 2005ish F-250s - they’re still fetching 5 figures... Heck, I won’t even look at a truck less than 8 years old until my next stock option boat comes in...

Last three f250s were 86,79,99. All were used as plow trucks. Last one is still going

Never seen an electric plow truck

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#599

Post by chrisdhal »

Daho0n wrote: post #567
theshrike79 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building a gas station for peak capacity would mean building so many pumps that you never have to queue. Even when people leave their car by the pump while going to the bathroom or grab a slushie and some snacks.

That is a solved problem in most of the world. I have waited at a gas station at most 5 times in my life and never more than 2-4 minutes. Going to the bathroom or leaving the pump I have never seen anyone do. If I did I would turn off the pump at the big red STOP button as leaving the pump running unattended is illegal.

I think he's saying leaving the pump after getting your gas. That's very common in my area. You pump your gas, go into the shop to get something and you leave your car at the pump. Nobody leaves their car while pumping.

It's not uncommon to have to wait a few minutes for a pump to open up in my local gas station and it's got about 15 pumps.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#600

Post by modeless »

Reason077 wrote: post #558
modeless wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just plug in, no card. The car identifies itself. It needs an internet connection to report the usage so it can be charged to the correct account. Gas stations obviously need a network connection of some kind too for card swipes to work. Otherwise you'd have to fall back to cash or manually writing down card numbers (is that even allowed anymore?) Almost all Superchargers are unmanned so no cash.

EMV (chip/contactless) credit cards are capable of working without an internet connection, including PIN or device-based verification. Transactions get stored/batched on the payment terminal until the connection is available again. EV chargers often still require internet, however, as payment is via app or their own RFID card/dongle. Putting credit card readers directly on the chargers is a relatively recent (and not…

That may be theoretically possible but I very much doubt any retailers have that set up to work properly. Around here the gas stations still verify your ZIP code. Superchargers could also store transactions in theory but I doubt it actually works there either.
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