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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#591

Post by arentyouspecial »

Alupis wrote: post #584
arentyouspecial wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the rise of convict leasing programs across the south after the passing of the 13th amendment, I’d say there was very little difference. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing

> The practice peaked around 1880, was formally outlawed by the last state (Alabama) in 1928, and persisted in various forms until it was abolished by President Franklin D. Roosevelt via Francis Biddle's "Circular 3591" of December 12, 1941. You use something that was ended (because people thought it was wrong!) nearly a century ago as supporting evidence for what exactly?

It wouldn’t be like paying prisoners literal pennies is a way of getting around the law that made convict leasing illegal.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#592

Post by mgh2 »

arentyouspecial wrote: post #571
Alupis wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - job…

Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

Nobody said these companies are doing a public good...

The main difference is punishing someone who did commit a crime vs someone who did not. As simple as that.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#593

Post by Alupis »

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #582
Alupis wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - job…

What? Paying someone (a pittance, mind) doesn't make forced labor not slavery. Read the 13th amendment.

Paying someone for labor kind of does make it not slavery - by the very definition of the word "slave" and "slavery".

Or are you attempting to redefine the word "slave"?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#594

Post by mike_h »

Alupis wrote: post #580
mike_h wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing. If that system is the US, we can question those assumptions along a few lines: - racial bias in enforcement and sentencing - inhumane prison terms in general - unjust laws e.g. the war on drugs - the failure of the society to provide entire classes of people with sufficient non-…

What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]? You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly? [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-... [3] https://www.msn…

I doubt anyone in this thread is arguing that forced labor would be ok anywhere. But hypocrisy is its own destructive force in the world, and there’s a weird meme in Western culture whereby unsavory behavior in China is somehow a sign of evil while the West is somehow more pure. The respective body counts and the number of people in jail (absolute and per-capita) make this highly questionable.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#595

Post by Alupis »

mike_h wrote: post #594
Alupis wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]? You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly? [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-... [3] https://www.msn…

I doubt anyone in this thread is arguing that forced labor would be ok anywhere. But hypocrisy is its own destructive force in the world, and there’s a weird meme in Western culture whereby unsavory behavior in China is somehow a sign of evil while the West is somehow more pure. The respective body counts and the number of people in jail (absolute and per-capita) make this highly questionable.

The article is talking about something very specific.

Muslims being forced into labor camps against their will.

The US has it's share of problems - nobody sane would deny that. But, what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree.

Even the very numbers that come from the CCP regarding their prison population are extremely suspect - they do not allow independent auditing, and we discover new slave labor camps like the ones in this article nearly every other day it seems. Flatly, the numbers put forth by the CCP are not to be trusted because the CCP has done nothing to make the numbers trustworthy.

Bringing things up from the US' past, nearly a century ago or longer, or equivocating paid voluntary prison labor with mandatory forced labor based on religion is flatly wrong.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#596

Post by wolverine876 »

darig wrote: post #544
legulere wrote: post #513

As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.

The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…

What do you think should be done about Xinjiang? Do you believe the U.S. and Americans will do nothing simply because it has issues with prisons (so different that they are practically unrelated)?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#597

Post by echelon »

unethical_ban wrote: post #378
ogre_codes wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then by extension if you buy any computer, consumer electronics, smartphone, manufactured toy, etc, you are complicit in human slavery. There are almost no computer or smartphone companies which do not participate in these markets. Samsung, Dell, HP, Lenovo (which is a Chinese company yet oddly gets ignored every time these discussions come up), Microsoft, LG, etc etc etc. All of them participate in these same indust…

And u/echelon was never seen in this thread again.

[flagged]

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#598

Post by arentyouspecial »

mgh2 wrote: post #592
arentyouspecial wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

Nobody said these companies are doing a public good... The main difference is punishing someone who did commit a crime vs someone who did not. As simple as that.

Except they did when they said “ Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.”

I’m not down playing the Chinese labor camps, I’m taking issue with claiming the prison labor in the US is some moral good. It’s exploiting people, not attempting to rehabilitating them.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#599

Post by Alupis »

arentyouspecial wrote: post #591
Alupis wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The practice peaked around 1880, was formally outlawed by the last state (Alabama) in 1928, and persisted in various forms until it was abolished by President Franklin D. Roosevelt via Francis Biddle's "Circular 3591" of December 12, 1941. You use something that was ended (because people thought it was wrong!) nearly a century ago as supporting evidence for what exactly?

It wouldn’t be like paying prisoners literal pennies is a way of getting around the law that made convict leasing illegal.

Convict Leasing is different, and people felt strongly enough that it was bad that the laws were changed (nearly 100 years ago!).

Now the prisoners can get paid some wages in return for labor, in a mostly voluntary labor system.

Unlike the CCP, every inmate had a trial and was found guilty of some crime, and is now repaying their debt to society - as it were.

What did the million Muslims in the article get convicted of in China? Being Muslims? What about the Uyghurs? So now they are slaves for the rest of their lives...

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