Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

Again, your comment is riddled with errors, and you draw conclusions from data that cannot be drawn. I have directly addressed your comments and the thrust of your argument, but I cannot address each and every error and misstatement. So I just choose some of the most egregious and deconstruct them as examples.

Much of what you say simply does not comport with reality. Anyone who's been to a grocery store in a lock down state can tell you that the stores became much sparser. A big part of this is because most people simply go less frequently. Also people don't tend to linger. In general, people make adjustments that all but completely mitigate the imaginary issues you're raising. You can rail on about a bunch of hypotheticals, but that doesn't overturn observable reality.

Likewise, all of your assertions about gloves and the virus living on surfaces, etc. It has not been proven that lingering detectable particles on items are a significant mode of transmission vs direct contact with people. And, in fact, super spreader events are linked directly to people in close proximity: funerals, church services, sporting events, parties and social gatherings, etc. Actively respired particles while in close proximity to other humans transmits the virus. Full stop. It is absolutely ludicrous to assert otherwise.

You also cannot draw the conclusion that masks are completely ineffective due purely to micron size. No, they are not a perfect shield, but they can reduce transmission in that clearly not every particle will fit neatly through a space and make a beeline from one person's mucous membranes to another's. This is just silliness. And, when all parties wear masks, it reduces viral contact even further. Reduction of contact with viable virus particles reduces transmission. Clearly.

These are truly facile statements you are making, and it's asinine to expect that someone will word for word deconstruct them. You take a bunch of random facts, misinterpret them, and suggest that you've made some sort of argument. You then go on to make sweeping statements without any basis in fact.

The other technique you are using is to cherry pick information and draw conclusions without regard to the factors that plainly contradict your points, and you equate correlation with causation. Some of those points I made to you in my last comment, but you chose not to address them.

For instance, I addressed your assertion that reopening states haven't experienced spikes by pointing out that there hasn't been enough time to measure. Additionally, many people are still under voluntary lockdown and most states are only partially reopened in any case. Crickets.

But, then you link out to some NBC news report that actually shows spikes in some states since their re-opening, directly contradicting your claims and supporting my assertion that we have not had enough time to draw conclusions. Did you think I wouldn't read it?

TLDR; your arguments are not actual arguments.

That is absolute nonsense. Did the 7 states that never locked down or the ones reopening weeks ago actually do so without it turning into the dire scenario the models predicted? Wasn’t the self directed mitigation’s and targeted quarantine in those areas sufficient?

Is the size of the coronavirus 0.06 to 0.14 microns, while the N95 masks we use filter 95% of particles larger than 0.3 microns? Will a chain link fence stop mosquitoes? Does the virus survive on cardboard/plastic/metal inside surfaces for extended periods making them spread vectors?

There was nothing voluntary about these lockdowns of people and shutdown of businesses. That is a pipe dream on your end. Quarantine is when you restrict the movement of sick people. Tyranny is when you restrict the movement of healthy people.

Regardless of if tyrants that share your viewpoint want it or not enough of us in the few remaining locked down states will use our constitutional rights to move on to cause a tipping point. We will open our businesses, go to work, hang out with friends and live life. We will fight alongside fellow Americans that are facing tyrants when exercising these rights, and we will work tirelessly to identify and remove tyrants in power.

I wish you and your loved ones good health. May God protect us both from tyranny and injustice.

We're getting to the point where I'm having to argue that water is wet, so I can't tell if you're being serious or trolling me at this point. And, now that you've played the "tyranny" card, it's easy to read your mischaracterizations as deliberate pseudoscientific pretense in the service of something else.

Still, I will answer in good faith.

Are the droplets on which the virus is carried all exactly .06 to 0.14 microns? No. They are as large as 5 to 10 microns. If you really aren't understanding how you're misinterpreting some of this information, then it's why I am unable to persuade you. I could point you to more info, including back to some that you linked, but you don't suffer from a lack of info. Your errors are in interpretation.

The report you linked shows increases in some reopened states. Where's your explanation for that? Just compare them to NYC? Of course every locale is not NYC, with its density, etc. Using that as some sort of benchmark is a strawman.

I never said the lockdown was voluntary. I said many are still voluntarily staying at home in states that have reopened, which will skew the numbers towards the lockdown numbers, depending on degree. So, here you're simply putting words in my mouth. Another strawman.

I also pointed to the fact that many are only partially reopened, which you yourself acknowledged. But, you just gloss over the limiting impact of that on the numbers. So, where's the line between "tyranny" and common sense here? How "partial" is OK? And, do you get this angry and threatened over vaccines, seat belt laws and helmet laws? Did you grab an AR-15 and head downtown to "fight" over those?

Every one of the arguments in your comment is based on an error in interpretation or outright misrepresentation. Every one.

Look, I don't like being stuck at home, but I understand it. If there's a "fight" here, it's against ignorance and fear-mongering over some make-believe tyranny, starring Fauci as some sort of devious, Palpatine-like deep state operative gunning for our freedom, while posing as a concerned septuagenarian scientist who happened to also lead the charge against HIV. It's pure fantasy. You see this right?

If you'll allow just a little daylight, step back and consider the outright absurdity of this tyranny narrative and see it for what it is, then you have to ask where this narrative is coming from, who benefits from it and what's the effect?

Because, I submit to you that what's far more frightening is the war on facts and Americans with assault rifles in our streets with the idea that they are some kind of freedom fighters in resisting public servants--and threatening them with death--who are simply trying to keep Americans safe. Someone's getting into the heads of some of our fellow citizens and pushing them toward the brink of something truly catastrophic here. These are nothing more than thugs in the streets, deployed in the service of something or someone, and made to believe they are heroes for threatening violence and disobeying any laws with which they disagree.

That is the end of rule of law, and it is the only real danger to our freedom here.

You accuse me of misrepresenting while doing it yourself and provide outliers to justify your point:

1) N95 effectiveness:

Edit: parent seem correct that it protect others against sneezes as long as it doesn’t leak out through sides due to sneeze velocity. See NIH links below [2,4].

However, if a person have virus particles on mask and touch it before touching other surfaces the mask may be a liability.

Then again, it seems more effective to isolate the sick than put masks on all.

2) I said that the dire scenario used to justify lockdown or the one in NYC, has not been seen in any reopened or never locked down states. I also said isolating the vulnerable seem sufficient.

I never claimed no reopened state will see some increases in covid cases, some do and some don't. I also did not say that the 7 states that never closed down experienced no covid scenario, but that they showed isolating the vulnerable was sufficient.

3) Lockdown measures have deprived rights under the color of law [3], violating rule of law, and enough of us will support each other to take full recourse under the law. The law I cited [3] show that the officials enforcing unconstitutional measures risk jail.

Enough of us will not accept when governors retaliate after loosing court cases [7], or when judges try to enforce unconstitutional lockdowns [8] or take on a prosecutorial role [5,6]. Or fine or jail people for exercising their constitutional rights. This is the definition of lack of rule of law. You are on the wrong side of history.

4) Yes, we will exercise our first amendment right to freedom of speech and if that fails we will exercise our second amendment right/responsibility to protect our liberty. Again, you are the one arguing against how the American democracy works.

[1] https://respiratory-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3785820/

[3] https://www.justice.gov/crt/deprivation-rights-under-color-l...

[4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10168531

[5] https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1260714837316960258

[6] https://www.wsj.com/articles/judges-are-umpires-not-ringmast...

[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowoEFpy-Kk

[8] https://www.texastribune.org/2020/05/06/texas-dallas-salon-o...

Agreed. These people aren't really interested in the facts or science. They have a conclusion. Everything else is a pseudoscientific veneer that gets them back to that conclusion.

Further down on this thread (after much goalpost moving and mischaracterization of facts), asabjorn has all but completely abandoned his/her initial assertions: that he/she opposed lockdowns because they are ineffective. It's now about "freedom, 1A and 2A".

Old asabjorn: >most states are now open or are reopening. We are not seeing spikes in coronavirus cases

New asabjorn: >I never claimed no reopened state will see some increases in covid cases, some do and some don't

I had to push really hard through all of his/her contortions to extract this and other concessions.

But, remarkably, this person just kept right on moving as if his/her entire argument wasn't based on the effectiveness of the lockdown. Then, went on to talk about tyranny and fighting for our freedom.