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Why is modern web development so complicated?

vrk.dev

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Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#591
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first paragraph is exactly my point. Because in an SPA, you have to handle it in both places, not only on the server. That makes it twice as hard as an old fashioned server-side mvc page. > Data being "an sql query away" on the server is similar to being "an AJAX call away" on the client. This is a bit disingenuous, since sql calls in most back end languages are synchronous. Also an ajax call needs to update the…

Except no one is going to want to wait for a page refresh just to update a bit of data.

Page refreshes can be a delta increment, it doesn't have to download everything again

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's the trick to not building shit software: don't build shit software. It's a crude way to put it, but the reality is that you can build bad websites in any framework (including old PHP stuff and new JavaScript hype). You can also build good websites in any framework. It depends way more on the organisation or team developing it than on the libraries you use.

Do you think anyone goes into a project thinking: "I'm going to build some complete garbage"? Shifting project and business requirements, scope creep, poor design choices and lack of competence all contribute to what makes bad software.

Eh, many people think "let me shit it out ASAP for those quick bucks", and then there it is. I would say not giving a damn about quality is identical to your quote, feels a bit more passive, but still.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#593
Why? Because most programmers are lazy, arrogant, self-serving children.

Given the choice between learning the business – requiring lots of talking to users to understand what they do and why they do it, and then writing very plain uninteresting code that servers those business users’ needs – or learning whizzy new CV-enhancing technologies and using them to invent excitingly complicated and interesting software problems so they can spend all their time solving those problem instead, which do you think the indolent bums are going to embrace?

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#594
post #499
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recognizing the right tool for the job landed you job security for the next two years (and you're deserve it!) But it could have very easily gone the other way. If your website had complicated validation rules on multi-page forms (not unheard of in healthcare) the site would be better off for some basic state management interacting with a standardized authentication/authorization framework that you didn't have to wri…

> But sometimes, it does have to be complicated. It almost never has to be complicated. People just enjoy making it so. Looks at their inventory management system

Everything has an absolute complexity. You can't get rid of it, just move it around.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#596

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

I am one of those guys who were "left behind".

I used to code in ASP and PHP back in the day, and that approach made a lot of sense. You'd have things that run on the server, and then those things throw out a website for the user to interact. If there's a need for reactivity, use some JS, but basically it all goes back to the same server program. I always found that this approach was good enough. You could do a lot, heck, I even wrote a browser game back in the day. Most importantly, it was simple, and it led to great web pages that would always work and could be used as such. No JS, no cookies? No issue, your code would just deal with it. A button was a button, and link was a link, and your browser did the rest. Text got sent as html, pictures were loaded or not depending on your preferences. Everything got faster and faster. This was years ago.

In the meantime, I stopped doing web dev.

Suddenly, in the last ten years or so, I noticed that websites became bad. The whole web just seemed to regress. Everything was JS, everything became single page, and if you didn't enable every single function in your browser, or if you pressed the "back" button, or reloaded the page - basically if you did not pretend that the website's UI was an actual native program - then everything breaks. News sites stopped loading text or images halfway through, buttons stopped working. Links were not clickable. Pictures would not show up. LOADING bars and circle-things appeared on websites that were already downloaded on my computer. Registration forms did not load default options, choice elements were empty. Once the page was loaded, everything was sloooooow. Scrolling became "different" and often laggy. Websites would load, then do something in the background to reload into garbled messes. Printing didn't work correctly. It's like Flash websites of my day (that everyone know were terrible and had very few good use cases) became the norm, but without Flash.

What happened to the internet? Why is everything garbage? Did all web developers die out?

I went back to make a simple website for myself. Reading tutorials, it was clear I had to use some framework. It was recommended to use JS, install some sort of server application and database, then a framework on top of that, and then something that runs in the user's browser. But everything was its own programming language, with no common denominator. You'd either need a PhD in JS and server development, or be happy to buy in to some framework that was usually not even very good. I did not understand anymore how web development works. I did no longer understand how the websites came to my customer, what the server did, how and when it did it... and everything was hard, even though this should all be really simple. And what came out was just... bad.

I went back to using simple web dev tools if I need to, and thought "well my needs are just not so advanced". But given that most websites have become so terrible, I just can't help but feel it all went wrong. Whoever thought up this frameworks and JS revolution was probably really smart, and there are probably some really good websites out there.

But I hate the internet now, and I don't understand web development anymore. I'm not even that old.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#597

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

Good for you!

I'm really glad to see that this no nonsense approach catches on.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#598
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed with PostgreSQL. But I'd go with Laravel rather than Django or Rails. More modern, more features, active development and constant new features are guaranteed for Laravel, in addition to growing community and abundance of learning resources.

Five years ago, I decided I was never going to touch PHP ever again. I have been much happier professionally since that day.

You might want to give it a shot. PHP has vastly improved with PHP7

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#599
post #562

It doesn't have to be complicated, if you get support from above. A few weeks ago I launched a new web site for a health care company. HTML, PHP, CSS, and MySQL. No frameworks. No javascript. No garbage. It replaced a site that was a mess of javascript libraries on top of frameworks on top of a half dozen jquery version and on and on and on. The company administrators, doctors, practitioners, etc... are so happy with…

Is PHP still a thing?

PHP serves most of all web traffic: https://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_langua...

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#600
post #51

Because, Webpages have become complicated. Suddenly, you have all this interactivity going on, which you didn't have a decade ago. We went from a series of simple hyperlinked inter-connected webpages to all these popups shoving onto our face, useless fake computer bots pretending to be tech-support and finally big co. tracking every single click, every pixel of your mouse movement. The web has come a long way to supp…

> I miss those days where everything was just a bunch of tables and default system font-powered webpages with plain blue links. No CSS, no popups, just html and pure content. You mean like HN? You 're not missing it. The old web never left. It's still here to catch all the misguided cloud walkers when they fall.

My thought exactly.The web is now a place to sell. That means you will have variations for all sorts of people.
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