Women: Learn to Program This Summer • Hacker News Board

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#591

Post by wsy » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #555

wsy wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think it is conceivable. But at the same time, I have a hard time explaining a 10%/90% distribution just with biological differences. It seems to me that the biological differences are too small to explain such a huge skew. In particular, because the gender distribution for programmers was very different in the 1940s/1950s. At the same time, the cultural biases seem so obvious to me, that I think acknowledging…

Why do you find such a skew unbelievable? For example, close to 95% of colorblind people are men. 80%+ of people with autism and like 99.9% of bald people. But it’s not all bad, men have 20 times more testosterone, which makes them stronger and faster. So clearly there are lots of biological differences with a 90/10 distribution.

We are talking about software developers. In the 1950s, most programmers were female. It doesn't seem to be a profession where male biological characteristics are essential to be successful. All the examples you mentioned are non-essential for being a good software developer.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#592

Post by wsy » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #585

wsy wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that your hypothetical is possible. However, in a field where men occupy 90% of all positions, I still find it hard to imagine that they discriminate against their own group, i.e. treat their fellow males "in a worse way from the way in which you treat other people" ( https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/discrimi... )

I wasn’t the one claiming discrimination against men, and I don’t think it comes much from other employees. I will say that at every place I’ve worked men have been much more welcoming and helpful towards women than men, but as an okd-fashioned conservative I think that’s as it should be. It’s undeniable that formal discrimination against men is common though, with lots of “women can code” programs and similar. Only…

If there was a program exclusively for men to support male primary school teachers, it would be a really great initiative.

Male software developers are already well off, that's why a program "men can code" already sounds a bit ridiculous. But if any rich guy or girl thinks that this is a great idea, I wouldn't mind. Opening paths that were closed before is always good, regardless if for women or men.

I tried to explain it before, but would like to repeat here again. By opening paths for people who couldn't go there before, you will make life for the ones already traveling on that path less nice. This is not discrimination.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#593

Post by QualityReboot » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 3:42 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #515

QualityReboot wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not exactly right. As I understand it, you sort of get to choose your gender, but society has to accept your choice. If I declare myself a woman but make no attempt to "live as a woman" as society sees it, I'll appear to be taking advantage of the system, and my choice will be rejected and there will be social consequences. Conversely, if I do appear to be making an honest attempt to be a woman, and you don't…

How would you define "live as a woman" in a way that would be acceptable to all women? It would be both sexist and transphobic to expect trans-women to "appear to be making an honest attempt to be a woman" by conforming to some outdated view of womanhood. Cis-women can do anything (including any traditionally male activity like date other women, wear jeans, like football and monster trucks, like anime and video games…

Trans women can do whatever they want, all I meant is that if people are only changing their gender on paper to have more opportunities, that's considered dishonest and unacceptable... At least, I thought that's how it worked.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#594

Post by malvosenior » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

QualityReboot wrote: post #593

leereeves wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you define "live as a woman" in a way that would be acceptable to all women? It would be both sexist and transphobic to expect trans-women to "appear to be making an honest attempt to be a woman" by conforming to some outdated view of womanhood. Cis-women can do anything (including any traditionally male activity like date other women, wear jeans, like football and monster trucks, like anime and video games…

Trans women can do whatever they want, all I meant is that if people are only changing their gender on paper to have more opportunities, that's considered dishonest and unacceptable... At least, I thought that's how it worked.

People have been doing this for a very long time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._K._Rowling#Name

As I mention in my other comments on this thread, it's not right to judge people on why they identify with a particular gender. Whether it's economically motivated or not, if you accept that people can choose their own gender, the reason for the choice doesn't matter.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#595

Post by Grustaf » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

wsy wrote: post #591

Grustaf wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you find such a skew unbelievable? For example, close to 95% of colorblind people are men. 80%+ of people with autism and like 99.9% of bald people. But it’s not all bad, men have 20 times more testosterone, which makes them stronger and faster. So clearly there are lots of biological differences with a 90/10 distribution.

We are talking about software developers. In the 1950s, most programmers were female. It doesn't seem to be a profession where male biological characteristics are essential to be successful. All the examples you mentioned are non-essential for being a good software developer.

We were talking about the existence of gender based 90/10 skews.

As to femle programmers in the 1950’s, do you really think that is comparable?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#596

Post by Grustaf » Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

wsy wrote: post #592

Grustaf wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn’t the one claiming discrimination against men, and I don’t think it comes much from other employees. I will say that at every place I’ve worked men have been much more welcoming and helpful towards women than men, but as an okd-fashioned conservative I think that’s as it should be. It’s undeniable that formal discrimination against men is common though, with lots of “women can code” programs and similar. Only…

If there was a program exclusively for men to support male primary school teachers, it would be a really great initiative. Male software developers are already well off, that's why a program "men can code" already sounds a bit ridiculous. But if any rich guy or girl thinks that this is a great idea, I wouldn't mind. Opening paths that were closed before is always good, regardless if for women or men. I tried to expla…

So without these initiatives it would not be possible for women to learn to program? What exactly is stopping them?

Of course it is discrimination to have programs that ezclude one gender. You might think it is justified but there's no doubt that it is discrimination.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#597

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 12:45 AM UTC

rosterface wrote: post #3

I recently completed a very difficult job search where I unfortunately had to lean on my ethnicity (I’m Mexican) to pass through very overt screening against white men. I was shocked to hear from multiple companies, large and small, that they did not want men and white men in particular. Now we see a YC co-founder giving 40 women $9000 to learn to program. Where does it end? I was really sad that while I personally c…

[deleted]

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#598

Post by Yetanfou » Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

rosterface wrote: post #3

I recently completed a very difficult job search where I unfortunately had to lean on my ethnicity (I’m Mexican) to pass through very overt screening against white men. I was shocked to hear from multiple companies, large and small, that they did not want men and white men in particular. Now we see a YC co-founder giving 40 women $9000 to learn to program. Where does it end? I was really sad that while I personally c…

This can only end when customers - from individuals to corporations - finally get fed up with the identity politics employed by these 'diversity' advocates and start shunning companies which profess adherence to this mantra. If this does not happen it will end when diversity has run its course and the population has been balkanised into nothing but oppressors and oppressed with the average size of the oppressed community being a single individual. Since by that time the economy will have ground to a halt they'll be fighting each other with sticks and stones.

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#599

Post by simonh » Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

Guthur wrote: post #513

UncleMeat wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rarely are people deliberately discriminating. Instead they have erected systems that, for one reason or another, lead to biases. You cannot stop discriminating while continuing to use these systems.

If they did exist they were accidental. But now there are overt discriminations being baked into various initiatives including recruiting.

Not so much these days, but back in the day I came across plenty of very explicit, very deliberate gender and racial bias. Talking to my mother, her whole career as a teacher was shaped by it.

The way I see it, there is very clear gender and racial and other minority under-representation in some areas of tech and employment. Some of the reasons for that might be benign, others might not. It makes sense to me to poke at this problem and explore it and push against it's boundaries, obviously in a non-damaging way.

This seems to me to be a positive way to do this. If women going to coding camps typically find themselves in a small minority among a big room full of guys, that isn't necessarily ideal for them. It's not anybody's fault, it's not like anybody has done anything wrong, but it can be an obstacle for those women to overcome. So why not try to minimise that obstacle?

Re: Women: Learn to Program This Summer

#600

Post by simonh » Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #509

hnxs wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ever make it out to the bay, you’ll see that white men, Asian men, and, to a much lesser extent (though much more represented than everyone other than the first two), Asian women make up the majority of the engineering workforce here.

Which clearly demonstrates that just because you belong to a minority, it does not mean you will be "oppressed" or whatever the current narrative is. There are successful groups of people belonging to a minority, i.e. it is not the fact of belonging to a minority that is the problem, is it?

What consists of a minority is of course contingent and relative. A group that is a minority in one setting can be the majority in another. In one situation a group can be the oppressed, in another 'they' (different individuals but of the same 'group') can be the oppressors. Unfortunately that's human nature, but it doesn't mean we have to just sit back and accept it.

If course it's also possible to overcome obstacles like these. Some people are very successful at doing so, but unfortunately others are not and shouldn't really have to.