European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case • Hacker News Board

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#591

Post by nojvek » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

mattigames wrote: post #533

MBCook wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Apple pre-installs it on Apple’s phones. Apple can do whatever they want on Apple phones. Google is forcing installations on Samsung phones, LG phones, etc through their contract. It is entirely possible what Apple is doing would be illegal IF they licensed/sold the OS to other OEMs.

Yeah, what Google is learning here is that you should never license your OS/sell to other manufacturers and never make it open-source and just go the Apple route instead, create the device yourself and make the OS completely proprietary and closed.

That would work if Google was really good at their own hardware. They aren’t.

Android’s rise to dominance was mostly because of partners like Samsung.

Personal preference but Samsung phones are the only ones which I see are comparable to latest iPhones in terms of speed, features and price.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#592

Post by bruinjoe » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:18 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #561

dmix wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the massive point that it was also happened to be far superior to Firefox and IE when it came out... And it held the #1 spot (by far) for nearly a decade while Firefox fumbled around and IE remained IE. It's crazy to say a product only succeeded because Google pushed it hard. Google (and Microsoft, Yahoo, etc) has a LONG list of failed products they pushed hard (Wave, Google Plus, etc). Did it play a r…

Chrome basically got a fresh start and built on top of existing WebKit codebase with new ideas. They did well with the “second mover advantage” Firefox and IE were riddled with code debt issues so they couldn’t move fast. Chrome was a great example of software written by a company with resources to dominate a huge market segment relatively quickly. I’m guessing Chrome earned Sundar Picchai a lot of good karma within…

Excellent points. Chrome has the best development tools. I used the dev tools so much that I just launch Chrome out of habit when I want to browse the web.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#593

Post by dmos62 » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

endorphone wrote: post #286

This is a dangerous ruling that pushes the world further into the potential for trade wars by proxy. Contrary to numerous posts- -no, the law isn't "clear". This is an incredibly nuanced situation, and the notion that Google was just overtly flouting (ed: thx sjcsjc) the law is outright nonsense. Google has a huge litany of bad practices (I personally recently switched my daily driver to an iPhone for that reason), b…

To put the $5B fine into perspective:

- Google had an operating income of 32.9 billion in 2017 [0]. $5B fine for anti-trust practices is 15.2% (5 / 32.9) of that. - HSBC had an operating income of 63.8 billion in 2017 [1]. In 2017, HSBC suffered a $1.9B fine for _willfully_ relaxing it's anti-money laundering filters in order to profit from the illegal drug industry, regimes that are embargoed, and entities or individuals who are suspected of financing terrorism [2]. That's a 1.9 / 63.8 = 0.29% fine for helping finance murderers.

That puts the Google fine into perspective, but it probably says more about the HSBC case than it does about Google's.

It should be noted that HSBC broke a deal to avoid prosecution, thanks to then Attorney General Eric Holder who overruled prosecutors' recommendation to pursue criminal charges. As part of the deal, HSBC confessed to above allegations, which was just a theory at the time.

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/513129/operating-income-... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/258399/total-operating-i... [2] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/netflix-documentary-re-exa...

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#594

Post by joshuamorton » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #578

endorphone wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neat. So the OS allowed you to choose alternatives and to avoid Chrome wholly. So you're fully of the opinion that the EU argument has no merit then, right? Of course, saying it's a part of the Android/Google Experience is from the average consumer. You know that you have the Chrome browser if you so choose. Yes, you can go to the Play Store and install Firefox. Unlike on iOS where the browser alternatives are facade…

It's the same argument as with Microsoft vs. the EU regarding IE: Defaults are important when you have a monopoly.

I'm pretty sure that an important part of the Microsoft argument was that you couldn't uninstall ie and it was used by certain system functions even if you set a different default. That's an important distinction.

(Im a Googler, but that's not particularly relevant to this comment)

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#595

Post by VikingCoder » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #590

VikingCoder wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. This is so back-asswards.

You can be open. You just can’t use contracts to extend your monopoly to other areas. This is not an open/closed dichotomy. This is a free/controlled market issue.

I literally don't understand.

If Google manufactured all Android phones, and Android were closed source, and Android came pre-installed with the Play Store, Search, and Chrome, I think it wouldn't be a problem, right?

That turns this into an open/closed dichotomy.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#596

Post by arghwhat » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #79

arghwhat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Variable fines are generally set based on revenue, rather than profits.

If so, this is a flaw. Not all businesses have the same margin.

It is the only sensible way. Your profit is in no way representative for what size of fine can be paid or is applicable.

The size of the fine is based on the violation type and size, revenue and a case-by-case evaluation, as company finances vary wildly.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#597

Post by wallace_f » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

philipodonnell wrote: post #451

swebs wrote: post #295

>In particular, Google has prevented manufacturers wishing to pre-install Google apps from selling even a single smart mobile device running on alternative versions of Android that were not approved by Google (so-called "Android forks"). Sounds a lot how Microsoft abused licensing agreements with OEMs to discourage them from selling PCs not bundled with Windows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Win…

Also Internet Explorer. This case seems almost a mirror of MS except in the phone space instead of PC. Only difference is that when the issue came up in Congress, MS was confrontational with regulators and Google cut some fat checks.

Not in disbelief, but could you link me to a source detailing this bribery?

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#598

Post by guelo » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

The fact that Google allows other OEMs to install their OS, as opposed to Apple which does not, is being used against them. If the lesson that Google learns is that it will kill it's OEM program then consumers will be worse off.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#599

Post by arghwhat » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #31

arghwhat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volvo is a much smaller company with much less revenue serving a small market share of a smaller market. With fines based partly on revenue, this difference makes perfect sense. Unlike your comment.

The link is about Volkswagen, not Volvo, even.

I was also rather confused, as I had not heard of Volvo having been caught, but I did not feel like engaging that deeply.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#600

Post by flexie » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

endorphone wrote: post #286

This is a dangerous ruling that pushes the world further into the potential for trade wars by proxy. Contrary to numerous posts- -no, the law isn't "clear". This is an incredibly nuanced situation, and the notion that Google was just overtly flouting (ed: thx sjcsjc) the law is outright nonsense. Google has a huge litany of bad practices (I personally recently switched my daily driver to an iPhone for that reason), b…

It's not a ruling. It's an administrative decision. And it's not dangerous. It has nothing to do with trade wars. Even insinuating that this is somehow a corrupt decision that takes aim at American companies is just way off. This decision has been several years in the making, and Google was told to stop their illegal conduct in April 2016.

EU treaty article 102 is about as clear as it gets. Google even had precedence to look at. And finally, they were warned by the EU commission more than 2 years ago but chose not to comply. This is a company with hundreds of lawyers on staff, and with the best law firms on retainer.

The fine is huge, but it's a small fraction of their revenue. This fine is measured based on guidelines that have been the same for more than a decade: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52...