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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#591

Post by therealdrag0 »

tboyd47 wrote: post #237
DanAndersen wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>circulating a secret memo around your company >then going on a self-promotional media crusade If internally sharing a document within a company is bad, and externally talking about it once it was made public by another party who got you fired is also bad, what is in your opinion the acceptable and appropriate method to have this conversation?

Going privately to people who disagree with you and talking to them respectfully about the issue you disagree on is a start.

Everyone was publicly disagreeing with him though so why should he remain private?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#592

Post by zeveb »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #453
ironjunkie wrote: post #171

After reading the memo and after reading most of the comments here that claim that users also read the memo makes me very afraid on the state of educated people in America. I cannot believe that most of you still go with the media narrative that Damore claimed "women are worse than man at engineering" while this is a very obvious misrepresentation of what he wrote in order to fill a narrative. This is all part of a p…

What? He actually does say that... > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. [...] > This is all part of a politically driven agenda that destroys everyone trying to question the unique, politically-correct acceptable way o…

The quoted line about distribution of talent does not imply that women are worse than men at engineering. In fact, due to the way standard deviation works, the average woman could be better than the average man at engineering but the average of the top 5% of women could be worse than the average of the top 5% of men at engineering. Yeah, that sounds weird, but it's completely possible with the right standard deviation and average.

Example: average ability score of 100, standard deviation of 16 and average ability score of 90, standard deviation of 32. The 95th percentile cutoff for the first group would be about 164; the 95th percentile cutoff for the second group would be about 218. So even though the average member of group 1 has a higher ability score than the average member of group 2, an organisation which hired the best 5% of all candidates would have disproportionately more members of group 2 than group one.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#593

Post by lurr »

lukev wrote: post #116
Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

> It's because he's just another brogrammer

ugh.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#594

Post by vowelless »

lurr wrote: post #518
vowelless wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned, I don't disparage "right wing". I actually enjoy Joe Rogans podcast, and also Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. All three of them are solidly classical liberal, which is probably right of center today (individualism vs. collectivism, equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, etc). But AFAIK, damore never came to the young Turks, Chapo trap house, which are leftist podcasts. I could be wrong.

> All three of them are solidly classical liberal, which is probably right of center today Classical liberal just seems like yet another rebranding by people who don't want to just call themselves conservatives. I've yet to hear a "classical liberal" who doesn't seem like yet another libertarian/conservative.

Which is why I stated that they are right of center... I agree, classical liberalism is basically right wing / conservative / libertarian. America generally is right wing, going back to it's founding.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#595

Post by paulgb »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #568
paulgb wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a former Googler (left before the memo) and I was upset by the memo because, in implying that the hiring bar was lower for women, it contained the thinly veiled corolloary that my female colleagues were less capable than my male colleagues. That did not match my experience at all.

Affirmative action is the policy of favoring members of a disadvantaged group who suffer or have suffered from discrimination within a culture[1]. Google is an affirmative action employer[2]. If women are favored over men, then wouldn't it make sense that a less skilled woman has the potential of being selected over a more skilled man? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action [2] https://careers.google.co…

I don't see any support for [2] in the page you linked (maybe because I am on mobile). There may have been efforts to recruit that were directed at women (e.g. sending employees to Grace Hopper), but ultimately the bar was the same for everyone.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#596

Post by mdarens »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #501
mdarens wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ironically if he had a union he likely would've had the protection of a grievance process and not been subject to summary termination, regardless of how sexist his views were

I see no irony here. The anti-union feeling is prevalent in SV and has little to do with this affair.

the irony is that the subcultural current with which damore sympathizes is generally pretty anti-union as well, but being represented by one probably would've provided him some protection.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#597

Post by lurr »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #295
lukev wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

> proposing that women are on average less biologically capable of programming is exactly what he's saying. No, he's saying that they also might be less interested , for biological reasons. I recommend actually reading the memo ( https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I... ): "Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men."

> I recommend actually reading the memo

I recommend you start realizing that people can read something and interpret it in vastly different ways.

Of course then you might have a revelation about this whole thing.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#598

Post by Uhhrrr »

lurr wrote: post #597
Uhhrrr wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> proposing that women are on average less biologically capable of programming is exactly what he's saying. No, he's saying that they also might be less interested , for biological reasons. I recommend actually reading the memo ( https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I... ): "Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men."

> I recommend actually reading the memo I recommend you start realizing that people can read something and interpret it in vastly different ways. Of course then you might have a revelation about this whole thing.

I recognize that, but it was evident that GP didn't read it in the first place.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#599

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

paulgb wrote: post #595
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action is the policy of favoring members of a disadvantaged group who suffer or have suffered from discrimination within a culture[1]. Google is an affirmative action employer[2]. If women are favored over men, then wouldn't it make sense that a less skilled woman has the potential of being selected over a more skilled man? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action [2] https://careers.google.co…

I don't see any support for [2] in the page you linked (maybe because I am on mobile). There may have been efforts to recruit that were directed at women (e.g. sending employees to Grace Hopper), but ultimately the bar was the same for everyone.

It's at the bottom of the page.

> Google is proud to be an equal opportunity workplace and is an affirmative action employer.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#600

Post by lurr »

keerthiko wrote: post #9
dguaraglia wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What wording do you suggest they use?

His memo was more along the lines of "women are less represented in tech because the industry does not favor their traits which are possibly a result of biological differences"

Also women aren't going into "high stress jobs" because they are too neurotic for them.

oh and diversity programs are bad. for some reason.

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