Why We Terminated Daily Stormer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#591

Post by matttproud » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:27 AM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park.

The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent:

1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfortable society you call home.

2. Support for Cryptofascism (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-fascism) is rampant. Either folks don't know that they already support it, or they wittingly do and are too afraid to say it out in the open.

Immensely disturbing. As someone who cherishes the rule of law over the rule of man, not aiding and these illiberal parties is the minimum. They are not pluralists; they don't care about the rules of the game. They won't politely tolerate you. Deviants will be chastised, expelled/expatriated, jailed, or killed. Ignoring prudence (preservation of self and the society at-large) is perilous.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#592

Post by elcapitan » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:29 AM UTC

It's funny that people still believe that exclusion will prevent other people from radicalization, rather than doing the opposite.

People get shouted down on college campuses if they disagree with politically correct views. So they go somewhere else to speak out their views, not being interfered with anymore. So they radicalize.

People in companies have to fear penalties if they speak out against developments they disagree with, so they don't speak out openly and form small circles and consult forums of their own. So they radicalize.

People see themselves misrepresented as extremists by what they perceive as the "mainstream media", so they turn to what they think is the opposite of that, so they enter their own world of facts with Fox, Breitbart, etc. So they radicalize.

Those people will vote for whoever they think represents the enemy of their enemies, and even support foreign governments that they think represent the opposite of their own establishment. They won't give a f about virtue-signaling platform providers in their own country, they will turn to providers elsewhere, whoever that may be (Russia etc).

The belief that further exclusion everywhere will make anything better is just absolutely ridiculous.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#593

Post by matt4077 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:32 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #582

susanrigetti wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never once in my life imagined that one of the first comments on a front-page HN post would be one that claimed that refusing service to Nazis was "spurious" and "bigoted" and that said comment was not flagged-to-oblivion. For anyone reading this thread, please know that this is NOT the majority opinion within the tech industry - not by a long shot. We are not Nazi sympathizers, and we do not think this is normal.…

Nobody is sympathizing with Nazis. And who is “we” and what don’t you think is normal? Essentially who elected you as a tech industry representative or the official pollster of the tech industry? This my isn’t about Nazis. This is about speech and freedom, business policies, discrimination. Change the word “Nazi” to “Communist” and I would be willing to bet you would not be making the same statements, despite communi…

"They shot Bin Laden. So wrong! Change the name 'Bin Laden' to 'my Grandmother' and I would be willing to bet you would no longer support it!"

It's super-convenient to create an argument where you can just ignore the actual topic that's being discussed. To say that this isn't about Nazis, a few days after they splattered some peaceful pedestrian along a wall, is cynical to a degree where people may indeed mistake the free-speech absolutism as a badly-veiled attempt to cover actual sympathies with such terrorists.

I'm wondering where all these but-I-will-give-my-life-for-your-right-to-say-it-grandstanders were on Saturday, when muslims in Charlottesville were praying while fascist militia in fatigues, and with automatic weapons, were standing outside, chanting threats.

Edit: Ah, sorry! Those were jews, not muslims. And not even the police was willing to protect them: http://www.newsweek.com/charlottesville-police-refused-prote...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#594

Post by timwilson1 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:35 AM UTC

I'm a long time lurker of HN. This is my first post. Decided to sign up to write this.

After all I have read in the news regarding Daily Stormer, I thought it best to go straight to the source, and find out whether what I had been reading was accurate, or if their views had been entirely, or in part, misrepresented.

As a result of Cloudflare revoking their services to DS, the site is down. I can't evaluate DS directly. To me, this is bad.

If everything that was said about DS is true, their own words would reveal their colours. People could judge them accordingly.

The media regularly misrepresents individuals and groups. We shouldn't have to take the media at their word. Whenever possible, we should be able to evaluate the source. Now we can't, and we're worse off for it.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#595

Post by SCdF » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:36 AM UTC

johnrichardson wrote: post #568

Adolf Hitler: ~9 million deaths Joseph Stalin: Estimates range from 3 million - 60 million deaths. Mao Zedong: Estimates range from 49 million - 78 million deaths. All evil men. Why aren't the latter two nearly as reviled as Hitler or 'Nazis'?

You mean, why aren't they idolised as much? Or used as a racist symbol to rally around as much?

The reviling comes as a reaction to the idolisation, and the use of that figure as a racist symbol to rally around.

Otherwise, you revile them while you do history in high school, and then move on with your life.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#596

Post by aluhut » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:39 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #587

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

That's not why they took them down. You can argue for censoring threatening dangerous terrorist speech all you want but it is incorrect to suggest that is the stance cloudflare took. They censored because stormfront falsely claimed cloudflare sympathized with their cause and pissed of the CEO. Not because the speech itself presented a clear and present danger. Foreign hosts are not really the right solution to freedo…

What is this "public space" statement based on? Only because I can go there? Like in a shop or restaurant? So if I set up a server as a private person, it's a "public space" too?

Looks like some heavy reality bending for a questionable cause to me.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#597

Post by ncallaway » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:39 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #587

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

That's not why they took them down. You can argue for censoring threatening dangerous terrorist speech all you want but it is incorrect to suggest that is the stance cloudflare took. They censored because stormfront falsely claimed cloudflare sympathized with their cause and pissed of the CEO. Not because the speech itself presented a clear and present danger. Foreign hosts are not really the right solution to freedo…

> Cloudflare is essentially performing the function of the police permitting the KKK to march, which the US constitution permits

The better analogy is that Cloudflare is performing the function of private security instead of a police force.

The United State government doesn't require any private entities to provide armed security for political groups they dislike (in fact, the US government couldn't make such a mandate as the mandate itself would fall afoul of the first amendment).

If we believe that there must be a steward of this resource that should provide this kind of service in a first amendment protected manner, then we should advocate that the government offer DDoS protection services.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#598

Post by aaron-lebo » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:41 AM UTC

matttproud wrote: post #591

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

Get out of here with the crying wolf.

Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfortable society you call home.

No, it's the last gasps of a dying breed of racists, empowered by the Internet and that look a lot more popular than they are due to media focus. Nazis are lame, but you leave them alone and there's nothing to fuel the fire. You send out counterprotesters, get in fights with them, act like these people are on the verge of starting a civil war and in their minds you've proved them right (delusional though they may be), and they get energized and then you have a real problem.

Kicking nazis off the Internet is one thing, but yours (and the grandparent) is the language that causes the slippery slope arguments. That people can't even discuss the issue of free speech without being assumed to be nazi sympathizers or "cryptofascists" or whatever we want to label people we don't agree with isn't ok.

Someone having a debate about the right of nazis to use modern services is not by extension a nazi.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#599

Post by chvid » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:43 AM UTC

matttproud wrote: post #591

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer.

I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war?

You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free speech should be set by courts and open process "nazis"?!

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#600

Post by tshaddox » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:43 AM UTC

genon wrote: post #545

pessimizer wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazis aren't a protected class, yet. Do you think that businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against skateboarders, or people who refuse to wear shirts and shoes? Not that you can't think that, but it's a weird personal ideology that calls for explanation and argument, not some pronouncement of what should or should not be done. I'm pretty sure you can make the argument why gay people, women and racial or r…

> Do you think that businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against skateboarders, or people who refuse to wear shirts and shoes? I don't believe that businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is behaving in a lawful manner. Is that belief what you're calling a "weird personal ideology"? > Do you have an similar argument for why Nazis shouldn't be fired, or why we shouldn't consider whet…

> I don't believe that businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is behaving in a lawful manner.

This principle doesn't seem very robust. Can a bar refuse entry to children? Can a cinema kick someone out for talking during a movie? Can a dance club have a dress code?