European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#591

Post by AndrewKemendo » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:24 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #506

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU? 1. Because it's in their long term best interest to have a customer for life (No political cycle) so they are more incentivized than a politician would be to support the interest of the consumer. 2. They have a more insight into user desires and actions on a day to day basis, meaning they can p…

Re: 1) You might think that is in Google's best interest - but I'm not sure most previous behavior with handling anything from usenet (Google groups), via the rss reader through any number of other services Google has mismanaged or shut down. It's in Google's best interest to make money. A large userbase and ubiquitous brand is part of that. User happiness is only one possible means to that end. Finally, you seem to…

Finally, you seem to think that search users are Google's customers - as they don't pay anything to Google, they are a resource, or product - not a customer.

That set of users though is what this whole action from the EU is trying to protect. It's only marginally about the other businesses - the end goal is making sure the population of the EU is benefiting.

To that end I have yet to see where or how Google has proven they have the population's interest at mind than the government itself. Google has a much better track record than any government does at listening to the majority of a population's demands based on their behavior (yes even with the deprecation of groups/reader etc...) and responding with their products.

The EU or any other government does less for the population (relative to capabilities, obviously Google doesn't pave roads yet) than Google.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#592

Post by bigleagueposter » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

zdkl wrote: post #367

Ajedi32 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it benefit the consumer though? I fail to see how showing links to search results pages from other companies in response to a product query is better for consumers than just showing them a listing of the products they actually searched for. [Google's response][1] to this ruling suggests they have data which confirms this: > While some comparison shopping sites naturally want Google to show them more prominently,…

As a consumer, I have (much) more trust that my interests are advanced by the EU than google. This is an opinion which I don't feel the need to convert anyone to but I really don't understand the opposite view. Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU?

I have no idea whose bribes control the corrupt EU bureaucracy. At least Google helps me by moving stuff from windows into the browser.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#593

Post by AndrewKemendo » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC

aluhut wrote: post #538

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why they believe google and other "emerging" power centers saveguard their interests better than the EU? 1. Because it's in their long term best interest to have a customer for life (No political cycle) so they are more incentivized than a politician would be to support the interest of the consumer. 2. They have a more insight into user desires and actions on a day to day basis, meaning they can p…

Wow. Really sad to read that here but: 1) They are a quasi monopoly. The word you use to describe searching on the internet is "googling". Most of the phones on this planet run on their OS. So please...don't fool yourself. 2) Who's creating those desires? You think that the desire for millions of useless shit products that drive the global market are created by some neccesity deeply in our DNA? Or maybe by your free…

They are a quasi monopoly.

Ok, and? The idea that monopoly is bad - ipso facto - is silly and monopolistic abuse of consumers is largely theoretical. Governments don't like monopolies because they challenge their power, and don't forget nearly every "bad" monopoly was the result of a government license to monopolize. The whole "Trust Busting" trope that underlies the anti-trust act was not because consumers were being hurt, it was a pissing match between the Government and Northern Securities Company [1]. Milton Friedman covered this well [2]

Who's creating those desires?

Companies, friends, acquaintances, media etc... it's not Google.

Or is this just the ad-industry stealing the attention...

Sure, are we debating the existence of an ad-market or Google? Cause I can assure you an ad market will exist irrespective of whatever Google does.

[1]https://books.google.com/books?id=klEeBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA6#v=onep...

[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLBzfFGFQU

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#594

Post by CobrastanJorji » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

icetoad wrote: post #537

Just once, I want a company being fined to just shut off service to the countries trying to fine them....

It's not a 100% match, but some years back Spain came up with a system where Google News would be required to pay money to the news sites they linked to. Google responded by simply turning off Google News in Spain, which immediately cost Spanish news sites to lose a sizable percentage of traffic and millions of dollars in revenue: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/new-study-shows-...

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#595

Post by gpderetta » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #275

I might be in a minority here and I'll probably get down voted but this result scares me... and I used to be CTO one of those competing price comparison sites that show up lower in the results so if anyone should agree it should be me. While it made me angry when Google put their results above ours, I never questioned that they had a right to do that. It is their website. They are not a utility. At what point does a…

> At what point does a company cross the line and become one that the EU feels can no longer promote their own product?

Easy: when you have a dominant market position.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#596

Post by sbov » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

ahallock wrote: post #553

sbov wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Google did this, and got past the shareholder lawsuits, what would happen? Nothing much. Someone else would step in. Greed and free markets makes the "Atlas Shrugged" scenario nonsense. I'm sure there are millions of smart people who would love it if all the other smart people stopped producing. All it means is more market share for them. I'm guessing you're posting this as someone who is fully sucked into th…

You named a few Google products to be contrarian and think that Google is far from indispensable? I'm calling bullshit because I'm willing to bet most of the non-Google products you use use Google somewhere in the chain.

I wasn't attempting to be contrarian, I was saying alternatives exist. Even in a business context. Our company uses Google for many things, but there are alternatives. The switching cost is high, but that doesn't make Google indispensable in my book.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#597

Post by dmitrygr » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #397

makomk wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should scare you. The EU just used their regulatory power to force the world's biggest search engine to make their user experience worse in order to benefit other companies. Before Google penalized all the vertical search sites, doing a Google search for certain kinds of products was a terrible experience; page after page of crappy information-free autogenerated sites hoping to make $$$ from ads and referral fees…

> The EU just used their regulatory power to force the world's biggest search engine to make their user experience worse in order to benefit other companies. It's really quite simple, if Google's user experience hinges on them abusing their market dominance then they have no business in the EU. Even if it means we can't have certain "nice things", I am perfectly okay with that. Companies have power. Companies with ma…

I do wonder how you'd really feel if you got your wish, and your "google.com" tomorrow resulted in a "HTTP 451 Unavailable For Legal Reasons"

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#598

Post by andybak » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

eveningcoffee wrote: post #531

dragonwriter wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google users are not (in most cases) their customers but a product Google sells to their actual customers. No, Google users are suppliers of a product (ad views) that Google sells to their customers. But they are suppliers that are paid via in-kind exchange (with Google services) rather than cash, which is exactly equivalent to being customers of Google services that pay with in-kind exchange rather than cash. So,…

Are chickens in the farm also customers?

Funny but not profound.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#599

Post by e12e » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:39 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #591

e12e wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: 1) You might think that is in Google's best interest - but I'm not sure most previous behavior with handling anything from usenet (Google groups), via the rss reader through any number of other services Google has mismanaged or shut down. It's in Google's best interest to make money. A large userbase and ubiquitous brand is part of that. User happiness is only one possible means to that end. Finally, you seem to…

Finally, you seem to think that search users are Google's customers - as they don't pay anything to Google, they are a resource, or product - not a customer. That set of users though is what this whole action from the EU is trying to protect. It's only marginally about the other businesses - the end goal is making sure the population of the EU is benefiting. To that end I have yet to see where or how Google has prove…

From the initial complaint:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4780_en.htm

> (...) systematically favouring its own comparison shopping product in its general search results pages. The Commission's preliminary view is that such conduct infringes EU antitrust rules because it stifles competition and harms consumer (...)

> (...) [Google] may therefore artificially divert traffic from rival comparison shopping services and hinder their ability to compete on the market. The Commission is concerned that users do not necessarily see the most relevant results in response to queries - this is to the detriment of consumers, and stifles innovation.

The EU is concerned with regulating the market to favour competition. It's true the underlying implication is that a Free market is a Good market - and so by defending completion it's theorised that the consumer profits. (in my opinion that's a non-seqitor - but that's the principle underlying the EU).

Now you could argue for other models, claiming that the proletariat will be better off - under a strict redistribution model, under an unregulated market, under a monopoly - but don't put EU's cart in front of the horse: it has one principle, a regulated free market.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#600

Post by gpderetta » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

Denzel wrote: post #582

makomk wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should scare you. The EU just used their regulatory power to force the world's biggest search engine to make their user experience worse in order to benefit other companies. Before Google penalized all the vertical search sites, doing a Google search for certain kinds of products was a terrible experience; page after page of crappy information-free autogenerated sites hoping to make $$$ from ads and referral fees…

There's a clear difference between what Bing and Google are doing. Please don't mistake the facts: 1. The EC is not asking Google to make their user experience worse. 2. The EC does not have a problem with sponsored search results. Google's user experience is the generic algorithm that determines what is the most relevant result. Google deliberately did not subject its own comparison shopping service to that algorith…

I worked at Bing in a previous life. As far as I know it was official policy that internal results would not be artificially boosted but had to be subject to the same ranking algorithm as anything else.