Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

591–600 of 805 posts

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#591

Post by jlarocco »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #539
jlarocco wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they have an obligation to obey the law. I disagree that they should lobby to change it. I understand that realistically that is what they will do, but I don't think it's the ethically correct thing. Laws are in place to benefit all of society, they shouldn't be changed on behalf of specific corporations, regardless of how much money the "donate".

So you oppose Apple and other tech companies lobbying for gay and transgender rights? Or Google lobbying for net neutrality?

Yes, I'm against corporate lobbying in all cases, even when they're lobbying for causes that I believe in like LGBT rights and net neutrality. I would be quite a hypocrite if I only supported corporate lobbying when it was for causes that I agreed with. Ideally corporations would have no place in politics.

And please don't conflate "doesn't support lobbying for XXX" with "doesn't support XXX". They're really orthogonal concepts.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#593

Post by LnxPrgr3 »

skookumchuck wrote: post #507
boomboomsubban wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A corporation can do none of those things. Yes they can, they just need to hide that they're doing it or keep the government on their side.

Some examples that illustrate your assertion, please.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/01/macys-shopl...

Not killing, but taking of liberty and property through their own extrajudicial system of justice.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#594

Post by ForrestN »

dpatru wrote: post #583

It's sad that Uber has to go to such lengths to avoid busybody government officials from interfering in peaceful commercial transactions. The people of Portland should fire these officials. Not only are they wasting taxpayer money, but they are also imposing costs on Uber and their customers.

It's sad that sweatshop owners have to go to such lengths to avoid busybody government officials from interfering in peaceful commercial transactions with children. The people of the United States should fire these officials. Not only are they wasting taxpayer money, but they are also imposing costs on manufacturers and their customers.

Uber has demonstrated a willingness to treat their employees like shit. The fact that local governments haven't interfered more is a testament to the pervasive attractiveness of two-bit libertarian confusion. I don't want to be driven around by a driver on their 14th hour of work. I don't want to be driven around by a driver with a poor driving record. I don't want to be driven around by a worker who is being exploited because they have been wrongly classified as a contractor and willfully mislead about their earning prospects. That's why we have government labor and safety regulators, because the profit motive is constantly in conflict with the rights of individual works or customers.

Don't like e coli? Don't like false advertising? Don't like children smoking cigarettes? Don't like predatory lending? Thank a regulator!

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#595

Post by dpatru »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #352

I wonder what rate of false negatives is, in terms of assigning Greyball status to someone who is not in fact a local official conducting a sting operation. Picture a 19-year-old woman in college whose dad convinced her to put Uber on her phone so she'd have a way to get home safely at night -- and linked her account up to his credit card so she wouldn't worry about having to afford the ride. Now picture her leaving…

Your example would be better put to government officials trying to shut down Uber.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#596

Post by mentat »

SilasX wrote: post #461
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

True, but there's a big difference between turning away anyone who looks like a cop (as biker bars might do, and is on firm legal ground), versus lying specifically to those people you believe to be cops.

So, saying the bar's closed would be ethically unacceptable but just saying you're not allowed in isn't? I'm afraid I don't agree with this being a clear ethical distinction.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#597

Post by ImSkeptical »

avn2109 wrote: post #309
austenallred wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

It may not be illegal to try and avoid a ticket, but imagine the sixteen year old who wants to give your kid a ride home from school says with a wink "Don't worry. I use Waze." That might make you think twice. If you're going to a lot of trouble to avoid law enforcement, doesn't that suggest you may be doing something illegal?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#598

Post by razorunreal »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #539
jlarocco wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they have an obligation to obey the law. I disagree that they should lobby to change it. I understand that realistically that is what they will do, but I don't think it's the ethically correct thing. Laws are in place to benefit all of society, they shouldn't be changed on behalf of specific corporations, regardless of how much money the "donate".

So you oppose Apple and other tech companies lobbying for gay and transgender rights? Or Google lobbying for net neutrality?

That powers are sometimes used for good does not imply the existence of those powers is a net positive.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#599

Post by mentat »

pikzen wrote: post #560
yummyfajitas wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do regular citizens, such as Rosa Parks, not have the same obligation? Personally I consider civil disobedience of unjust laws to be acceptable, for either a single person or for an organized group of people (such as Uber).

>comparing Rosa Parks, who fought for civil rights to Uber, who actively contributes to undermining worker's rights in over 20 countries. only on HN

They're making the important point that what people really mean is "laws I agree or don't agree with" not "laws". Hopefully not only on HN do people have reflective capacity to see this.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#600

Post by ImSkeptical »

themaninthedark wrote: post #586
DaUR wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how civil disobedience leads to authoritarianism rather than the opposite. Also, by your reasoning, civil disobedience is never justified. And does Trump being President change your reasoning at all?

So then is the country clerk that refused to sign marriage certificates for gays a hero too? She was just practicing civil disobedience. Or perhaps she should just move very slowly when it comes to same sex couples, just never can get the work done. She isn't refusing it just never gets done.

Not everyone practicing civil disobedience is right.
Post reply on HN