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Switching from macOS: The Basics

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Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#591

Post by sgtpepper43 »

maratc wrote: post #563
AsyncAwait wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing works right, on any of them. Copy/paste, batteries, wireless networking, drag and drop, high-res displays, multilingual input, even like fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs... Can you be more specific? i.e. - copy paste with a highlight+middle mouse button is frankly awesome in GNOME. - Batteries - yeah, Windows laptops usually don't have amazing battery life and it can…

Copy is Ctrl+C in your browser, in your notepad, in your IDE, but it's Ctrl-Shift-C in your terminal. Paste is Ctrl+V in your browser, in your notepad, in your IDE, but it's Ctrl-Shift-V in your terminal. Now copy a bunch of IPs from your AWS page into terminal to ssh into them for an hour or so. Fuck that shit, I'm getting a second mortgage for the MBP and a set of 19 dongles.

It's been years since I've used linux, but my muscle memory for copying/pasting in the terminal is still there, to the point of it being the reason I can't use non Mac layout keyboards in OSX. I'll just keep pressing shift if I'm in the terminal.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#592

Post by wruza »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #579
wruza wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- wireless networking - works great if you're willing to do a bit of research before buying, instead of just dropping Linux on any garbage PC and expecting it to work flawlessly, (why won't you try that with macOS and report back?) Why doesn't Linux track actual hardware proved to be compatible. Each year the same 'bit of research' with no guarantees at all. Oh, wait, Linux does not — because it isn't a Product.

> Why doesn't Linux track actual hardware proved to be compatible. Sure it does [1]. The "bit of research" involves finding out if your desired machine has one of the many chips known to work flawlessly, which shouldn't be a problem, unless you don't mind what you spend your money on and just buy impulsively. There are also chipset manufactures which are known to be more friendly than others, for example almost any m…

Must confess that 10 years ago I lost around 5 years in deep linux setup & programming, and I know all that you say. Neither [1] nor [2] do not list recent specific hardware models, I mean, notebooks and PCs, not chips or boards. Regular user has to unpack the device and `lspci -vnn -d 14e4:` (amazingly clear for regular user?), or something in live-usb system console at the store under manager's sight to maybe estimate whether this wifi is able to work with specific distro, which alone is a big question until you try it. Repeat these steps for all the hardware in potential purchase, and good luck to find all the specs, because often it is just i5/16Gb/13". There also are unresearchable timebombs like fast battery discharge and sleep issues under non-supported OSes.

"Product" is at least a site like easylinux.com, where you see that in late 2016 you can buy compatible X,Y and almost compatible Z (bios-only fan control), and in 2015 there were A,B,C, and in 2014 D was the best choice. Please click on direct link, torrent or ftp to download a distro image that already contains all the specific drivers and software.

Obviously, I'm unable to provide any evidence for something that doesn't exist.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#593

Post by pkd »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #583
pkd wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Broadcom fix is literally one apt-get install command. The driver issues keep happening because companies are loathe at releasing drivers for Linux or even provide support and assistance for third party drivers. Here's looking at you Realtek. Also I don't understand how something can be bespoke and inefficient at the same time. With MacOS, you learn the Apple way, with Linux you have the freedom to create your ow…

The driver itself is horribly, horribly unstable. Also. I definitely do not have "the freedom to create my own workflow". No amount of my trying, including digging into window manager, UI toolkits, and application code for KDE, GNOME, or Xfce resulted in my being able to provide consistent keyboard shortcuts across the board. So I wasn't able to get to a point where I could use 30-years of muscle memory and predictab…

I did not intend to call you a noo[n] (and neither to misspell it that way. Typing on the phone is hard). Neither did I mention anything related to open source to cause you any annoyance.

Linux offers a lot of pick your own adventure style options for everybody. Yes, it takes a bit of time to get used to it, but so does getting used to the cmd/ctrl abomination in Macs. I don't see people complaining about that.

The only application that by default violates the normal keyboard shortcuts is the terminal and even that has menu options for changing them to what you like. I don't know what application doesn't respect common shortcuts to break your muscle memory but I then I am not a distributed systems engineer so what do I know.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#594

Post by make3 »

veidr wrote: post #357

My own burning hatred towards Apple runs a little hotter than most, and I have been seriously googling (and trying) alternatives since 2012. That was when my $9000 Mac Pro — which had been a great machine, and still was, except for the little detail about not having been updated since 2009 and thus being stuck with USB 2 (!!!) to say nothing of Thunderbolt and any kind of modern accoutrements — started to feel like a…

You're just used to osx. I had the same feeling the other way around. Install a distro and give it some time, you'll get used to it.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#595

Post by reinar »

pmlnr wrote: post #45
Void_ wrote: post #39

I'm really hoping this is just a phase. Hoping that Apple will reduce prices of new laptops and we'll be back to normal. Right now everybody is using Macs. Walk into the Bay Area coffee shop, you see Macs everywhere. I love that. I build desktop software for Macs (focuslist.co). My apps are prettier than any others. They are easier and faster to use. This is the reason why people pay me $5 while they can get the job…

> Take Mac away and high quality desktop apps will go away. Well... no. Ubuntu, Gnome, KDE, XFCE; they are all high quality desktops. Don't mix the desktop with the applications you're running on it. > We'll have to endure multi-platform Electron stuff. Now that is indeed a real issue, and yes, ugh. Edit: I've misread the original, sorry, so adding a few things: if you're using the default apps or the ones built for…

> Ubuntu, Gnome, KDE, XFCE; they are all high quality desktops.

well... no. Speaking as long-time Linux user who tried all of this and in the end using i3 to avoid constant stream of bugs from DE.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#596

Post by AsyncAwait »

wruza wrote: post #592
AsyncAwait wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why doesn't Linux track actual hardware proved to be compatible. Sure it does [1]. The "bit of research" involves finding out if your desired machine has one of the many chips known to work flawlessly, which shouldn't be a problem, unless you don't mind what you spend your money on and just buy impulsively. There are also chipset manufactures which are known to be more friendly than others, for example almost any m…

Must confess that 10 years ago I lost around 5 years in deep linux setup & programming, and I know all that you say. Neither [1] nor [2] do not list recent specific hardware models, I mean, notebooks and PCs, not chips or boards. Regular user has to unpack the device and `lspci -vnn -d 14e4:` (amazingly clear for regular user?), or something in live-usb system console at the store under manager's sight to maybe estim…

> Must confess that 10 years ago I lost around 5 years in deep linux setup & programming, and I know all that you say.

I am afraid you'll find the Linux of today is much different than a decade ago.

In regards to known working laptops, you mean something like this[1], this[2], this[3] or this[4] ?

Also you can just buy from [5] or [6] and have Linux preinstalled with all the correct drivers.

[1] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Category:Laptops [2] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_13_(2016)#XPS_... [3] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HP_Spectre_x360_ap012dx [4] - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MacBook [5] - https://system76.com/laptops [6] - https://www.entroware.com/store/laptops

And honestly you can just ask the community on Reddit/IRC/Distroo forums etc. about their experience with the model you want to buy, is that really a problem if you're a "Pro" user spending serious money on the machine?

It honestly just looks like you're too lazy to look. Or maybe you just made up your mind and refuse to budge even when provided evidence to the contrary - I honestly do not understand why you engage in a discussion then, you've already made up your mind.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#597

Post by soneil »

paultopia wrote: post #558
highace wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows? It's really not that bad.

I've been dying for details about Windows 10 and the linux subsystem, and don't actually know anyone who uses it for serious work. Is it actually a replacement for the BSD-based goodness of OSX? Do you get GCC, Make, instantly-functional Python, etc. etc. etc.? Or are there a ton of rough edges? Seriously considering jumping ship to Microsoft and buying a Surface here...

It's certainly worth playing with, but I'm not sure I'd depend on it actually working for any given task yet. YMMV of course, but you really want to give it a spin before you put any purchasing choices behind it.

e.g., for my uses, I am constantly running into 'rough edges'. Huge swathes of /proc are missing, which breaks a lot of tools I simply expect to work. As an example, I have a very simple script for tooling with my raspberry pis. It does an ipv6 broadcast ping (ff02::1) on my ethernet interface, and ssh's to the address that returns. Nice easy way to solve the chicken & egg of sshing to a device that has no address configured yet.

On 'Bash on Ubuntu on Windows', it fails because I can't use the -I(interface) option with either ping or ping6 - setsockopt(SO_BINDTODEVICE): Protocol not available. (and you can't broadcast without that, because the broadcast address is the same on every interface, so it can't figure it out itself).

Then I can't list my own IP address, either the new way (ip addr show - SO_SNDBUF: Invalid Argument) or the traditional way (ifconfig - /proc/net/dev doesn't exist), which was my script's other requirement - because if I broadcast on my own interfaces, I'll also reply to them, so I need to know my own address to exclude it from the replies.

Most of this may be very situational, or may be me doing things the wrong way, and may not affect what you expect to run on a linux subsystem. But it did hammer home for me quite quickly, that this isn't a unix environment - it's a very shallow veneer.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#598

Post by soneil »

FrankBlack wrote: post #47

Perhaps I am just dense, but the article references, specifically, the "Pro" market. For most pros that I know (and I am among them), our OS choice is often based on our tools, not the other way around. If I need Photoshop, Lightroom, Logic Pro, Visual Studio, etc., switching will be quite a chore. For the average user, this is probably a much more appealing argument.

Yes, exactly. I've read that people are expecting photographers to move to Linux because the new MBP doesn't include an SD slot.

They're actually claiming I'm going to give up Photoshop, Pixelmator, Lightroom, CaptureOne rather than buying an external card-reader. And that's ignoring that most of us already prefer 3rd-party external card readers for speed alone ..

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#599

Post by wruza »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #596
wruza wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Must confess that 10 years ago I lost around 5 years in deep linux setup & programming, and I know all that you say. Neither [1] nor [2] do not list recent specific hardware models, I mean, notebooks and PCs, not chips or boards. Regular user has to unpack the device and `lspci -vnn -d 14e4:` (amazingly clear for regular user?), or something in live-usb system console at the store under manager's sight to maybe estim…

> Must confess that 10 years ago I lost around 5 years in deep linux setup & programming, and I know all that you say. I am afraid you'll find the Linux of today is much different than a decade ago. In regards to known working laptops, you mean something like this[1], this[2], this[3] or this[4] ? Also you can just buy from [5] or [6] and have Linux preinstalled with all the correct drivers. [1] - https://wiki.archli…

I'm interested in Ubuntu LTS or Debian stable, not in school-rolled Arch that is known to be broken on each update. Second, it's wiki is filled with anecdotal tips (not even tips) that cover no real issues and provide no idea from which hardware to select. You should click on every configuration to check it, but no one will do. Because it is just words without any customer review or experience. Call it lazy, don't mind.

I'm watching local linux community for years despite not using it, and from what I see, Arch and blah-blah-wiki are still no Products. Curious if you really use this Arch and selected hw by its wiki, or you just googled for me, writing from ubuntu on 10-year old thinkpad. Locals can't really tell what to buy, because virtually everyone except those having ancient thinkpads have at least one issue. Some sit with charger always attached, some can't sleep, some have crashes because nvidia-blob, some because nouveau-blob, others just bought macbook and have no problems trolling linuxoids from osx.

5-6 seem to be not presented in my country.

I can spend some money on recent notebook (but don't get that 'serious' and 'pro' arguments, because we talk about regular user and regular hw) after just your hype, but what an idiot will I feel myself when it will lose wifi too often or fail to sleep on close. I understand you, arguing for linux on desktop is hard, because desktop is still few% of enthusiasts. Statistics prove it all.

Re: Switching from macOS: The Basics

#600

Post by iamcreasy »

pmlnr wrote: post #320
piotrkubisa wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On their blog [1] and repository [2] there were some clarification about this "trick". [1]: http://blog.elementary.io/post/110645528530/payments [2]: https://github.com/elementary/website/pull/655 It is a shame for Elementary OS Team, because this issue was many times discussed on GH issues / IRC about implementing just a "$0" button. As I remember in launchpad there is also a task or discussion about suggestion of t…

Not a $0. An "I would like to try it first" button.

I sincerely hope that they start using this approach.
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