This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#591

Post by warfangle » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:13 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #587

warfangle wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not. How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :) You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus. Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the exti…

The poster you're replying to stresses again and again that this refers to public spaces. Even so, I'm not sure discrimination and harassment reach the same bar as discussing things like abortion in the abstract, for example. Personally, I'm not sure I'd support anyone harassing another personally, although if speech isn't intimidating to a person, you can't say it's harassment, I think (IANAL).

Yep. But public spaces in context of the larger discussion at hand refers to universities as well.

Nobody's saying that we should turn main street of podunk, OH into a designated safe place (though, it says a lot about the culture in america that it is decidedly NOT a safe place to be if you're LGBTQ/POC/etc).

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#592

Post by jimmy_sprinkles » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:16 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #275

laotzu wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sincere question: why should you not accept it? >Any person capable of angering you becomes your master; he can anger you only when you permit yourself to be disturbed by him. -Epictetus To answer your question, we should accept it because that is the way reality is fundamentally. Go ahead and try to eternally fight to erase all darkness so that there is only light. Spoiler alert: it's impossible. If there were no da…

I sincerely believe our society would be improved if people could live how they want, provided they harm no one else. While I agree it's a lofty goal, I don't think we have to voluntarily shackle ourselves to a life of hard knocks. > Go ahead and try to eternally fight to erase all darkness so that there is only light. I will, thanks! Why do you think people try to impede me?

I've been seeing you post throughout this entire thread and it offends me highly. Should speech like yours also be banned because I'm offended? Or do I tolerate it because I know it's your opinion?

This is the problem with your argument: being 'offended' is highly subjective. To some people, simply existing means you are offended...which is why it will never work.

'safe spaces' and trying to make everything a 'safe space' is a huge disservice to these students and will only put them that much further behind the rest of the world when they go out into the real working world and can't handle an opposing view point.

We should be concentrating on creating strong adults that can discuss any view point intelligently and stand their ground when needed. Instead, we have students that never learn these skills (which should be taught in college) and crumble at any hint of opposition. I feel like this is a a weakness and a step back in terms of societal evolution.

I started seeing it a few years back in many open source projects. Rather than try to win on the merits of an idea, many people would rather spend time destroying a person on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media to gain support.

I have since sworn off all open source projects and stick to my own private repos.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#593

Post by AnimalMuppet » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:16 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #356

jMyles wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak, or at least not much, to the changes that occurred in the 70's. But they are still happening today, and they are decidedly NOT in response to parents. At all. In fact, parents have very little power to effect change at a SUNY school as far as I can tell. Rather, these seem to be directives coming from Albany (or beyond) and disseminated at conferences that are attended by Student Life "professionals."…

Interesting, I have noticed the same at my university and frankly I don't see the point of those jobs. All they do is raise tuition.

I suspect that there are two points to those jobs. The not-really-stated point is that they keep the university from being sued for some student having bad judgment, by not letting the students have any judgment. The absolutely-not-stated point is that somebody got a cushy, well-paying job.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#594

Post by ctdonath » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:18 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #439

ctdonath wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "red cup controversy" wasn't "alive and well in modern Christianity" as there was no actual outrage about the cup, only self-congratulatory outrage by others against the presumed & imputed anti-red-cup outrage which didn't actually exist. What's telling is how many people were quick to sneer at a group for doing something they didn't do.

Uh, it's an indicator. Goes alongside the "War on Christmas" narrative that has been, ahem, alive and well in modern Christianity. Would you prefer a citation of the growing frequency of political grand-standing of forbidding "Sharia Law" in predominately Christain districts?

I'll take your insistence on bashing modern Christianity with whatever you can (red cup, Christmas, politics, Sharia) as an indicator of something all right.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#595

Post by kabdib » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

fluxquanta wrote: post #465

kabdib wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use this all the time. "You want to add feature X because ..." ... and then, once we've clarified what the request is all about, and I'm sure about what's going on, only then can you move in to help, offer advice, or crush their souls with a series of devastating blows. No, don't do the latter. Show your side of the story and get them to say it out loud. "Okay, you're right, putting a Perl 6 interpreter in the inte…

While I definitely agree this doesn't always work because ego gets involved, at least in my experience. Stating what you understand the situation or question to be back to the other party can often be interpreted as a challenge of their personal judgement on something that should be considered objectively.

Presentation is everything here. Be humble. It's not Machiavellian if you're really trying to understand.

Letting someone fail is often good, too...

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#596

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:28 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #557

yummyfajitas wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not appealing to authority at all. The article reproduces verbatim a table from the DOJ, then does multiplication. I reproduced the multiplication myself, since so many people seem to think the white supremacists can't multiply.

But the multiplication does not support the assertion. I am sure that many people biased by skin color can perform multiplication with the help of a calculator. The accuracy of the calculation is not at issue. The issue is that the multiplication is not valid according to Bayesian probability analysis. It doesn't matter how valid the original numbers are if you interpret them incorrectly. The implicit appeal to autho…

Scroll up. I'm not claiming white people should be afraid of blacks. I'm claiming that they have a vague proximal reason to be afraid, analogous to maaku's "possibility of being assaulted without recourse or lynched...a few generations back".

My opinion on all of these vague feelings of fear: "completely irrational and entirely his [the person feeling it] problem."

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#597

Post by warfangle » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #589

warfangle wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student. One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles. Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about stayi…

"Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else." Please do not read any tone into what I'm saying here, because if you've gotten that message I honestly don't know how. "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." - John 13:34 The verse you reference above i…

A lot of the very right-wing evangelical churches do.

I grew up in one. They use words that mean one thing to everyone else but mean (via subtext) another thing entirely to the in-group.

That's why I specifically called out that kind of church; I thought I was careful about that. I've been in many churches that are amazing, wonderful places. But I've been to other churches (usually PCA) that can be downright evil.

Edit: this wasn't about skin color, but more LGBTQ/nonbelievers. They're a very different breed of bigot than Those Who Wear Sheets.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#598

Post by ahtierney » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #473

ahtierney wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue the act of debugging it is the consequence. You assume something to be correct (or make a stupid mistake), you face the fact that it's not, you adjust your behavior and gain insight into facing the problem again. Same thing applies to social experience, the difference is in WebGL there is something approximating a 'right way.' I never thought Yoga would be contentious, some people do, now I'll think abo…

It is impossible to prove a yoga class at a university harms a culture. It is easily provable that forcing these people not to meet on campus as a group does real actual harm. And I don't care about their feelings, I care about fairness and justice.

I think the argument would be more along the lines of: "You're calling this Yoga, but here is what Yoga has meant historically in my culture, which is actually quite different." I think the types of behaviors people attribute to PC nazis or similar are understandable responses by groups of people who are usually ignored by the mainstream so they raise a stink (read: pay attention to us or else!). Conversely putting people into that box usually comes from groups who are (like myself) historically highly empowered and have the luxury of intellectualizing things that are more in the corporeal/emotional realm for the groups they're critiquing (ie. stereotyping, mockery, physical abuse). I think fairness and justice are highly subjective and can only be gleaned by carful consideration of both sides, which is to say understanding why they have their "feelings" and why you don't care about them.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#599

Post by Retra » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

licoricetic wrote: post #500

6stringmerc wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, it's an indicator. Goes alongside the "War on Christmas" narrative that has been, ahem, alive and well in modern Christianity. Would you prefer a citation of the growing frequency of political grand-standing of forbidding "Sharia Law" in predominately Christain districts?

Saying "War on Christmas is alive and well in Christianity" is like saying "Daesh is alive and well in Islam". It is smearing a much larger group for the misbehavior of a small segment of demagogue extremists.

"Small Segment" indeed:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/august-2015-ratings-fox-news-1-in...

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#600

Post by darkr » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #570

darkr wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a sheltered life you claim to have led, not to have met anyone "smart" who is also religious. Perhaps, although maybe in my social bubble in London, Christians just aren't all that common, smart or otherwise. My last interaction with a Christian was my ex-neighbours. Lovely friendly family, or so we thought until we saw & heard them carrying out exorcisms on terrified, screaming children in their kitchen. I ca…

One neighboring family (with whom you've had conflicts serious enough to require LEO intervention) is standing in for Christians you've never met on the other side of the world? How is that not prejudice?

I didn't have any conflicts with them. They were nice people, to me at least; they even used to cut my hedge. My only issue with them was that they thought that a man who lived in the sky, or possibly everywhere was telling them that a disabled child had some kind of devil living inside them and that they had to get it out, even if doing that required screaming and shouting, shaking and probably permanently damaging the child.

I don't think all Christians are like that either. My grandma was a Catholic, and one of the most selfless people I have ever known.

Most of the monotheistic religions seem to me a little like still believing in Father Christmas, and the same "get em while they're young" method of indoctrination is often used. If I meet someone who is religious, in my head I'm thinking about the practicalities and (how does such a fat man get down the chimney? How does he know which children have been naughty and which have been nice? And how does he get through all those houses in one night?).

And I'm not prejudiced. Pointing out gaping inconsistencies in someone else's argument or belief system goes not constitute prejudice. I totally support people believing in whatever they want to believe as long as it doesn't impact on others right to do the same. My personal belief is that Father Christmas does not exist, and any grown-up believing that he does is fucking ridiculous.

I do like mince pies though.