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The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

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Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#581

Post by mancerayder »

happymellon wrote: post #433

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but the war on anonymity was first (just) passed in the US at a state level as porn laws before it passed in the UK. Are we pretending that the porn id laws weren't a first attempt at getting forums like Reddit that might "accidentally" have naked pictures liable and therefore profile everyone? Because this is leaning on blaming to UK for everything the US is doing to itself an awful lot…

There are people in the replies below going back and forth about whether the US or the UK started the surveillance state first. I think as undemocratic as the US can behave in practice, it's hard not to argue that the UK won the CCTV surveillance race. London is heavily surveilled. And it doesn't help that someone just posted this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49255496

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#582

Post by like_any_other »

inigyou wrote: post #516
happymellon wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a history of arrests over "wrong think" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-com... https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/new-hampshire-police-a... https://www.fire.org/news/lawsuit-ex-cop-sues-after-spending...

This. The UK "wrongthink arrests" were for stuff like calling for a building full of people to be burned down. While the US arrests you for criticising the police chief.

The UK arrests were also for stickers with: slogans such as “Reject white guilt”, “Nationalism is nurture”, “We will be a minority in our homeland by 2066” and “Diversity – designed to fail, built to replace” - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/16/uk-man-with-...

"Stirring up racial hatred", even merely possessing material that could do so, is a crime in the UK: https://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Possessing-raci...

Burning the Koran is also illegal: https://spectator.com/article/england-now-has-a-blasphemy-la...

Viewing "far-right propaganda" carries a 15 year jail sentence: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/03/amber-rudd-v...

True factual statements such as "young white girls are being raped by these grooming gangs" come with a nearly 1-year jail term: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce328p9330eo

Note that most of the time, articles are happy to omit actual quotes, instead parroting the prosecution's description of the speech in question, using vague terms such as "racially aggravated comments" or "inciting racial hatred":

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3rq8r4jdgno

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68086012

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68074858

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#583

Post by happymellon »

littlecorner wrote: post #563
happymellon wrote: post #433

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but the war on anonymity was first (just) passed in the US at a state level as porn laws before it passed in the UK. Are we pretending that the porn id laws weren't a first attempt at getting forums like Reddit that might "accidentally" have naked pictures liable and therefore profile everyone? Because this is leaning on blaming to UK for everything the US is doing to itself an awful lot…

Which states? How much? Were these anomalous events that were overturned, or more systematic? These are honest questions I'm having, not trying to argue any narrative

I know it's against the HN rules to suggest that some read the fine article, however the answer to your questions and more are in the first paragraph, and in picture format too!

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#584

Post by jollyllama »

chr15m wrote: post #254

The right people to protect children are those responsible for them - their parents and guardians. If there is a problem with children not being sufficiently protected, that is the level at which to solve it. Give families tools and information to do so.

They don't actually care about children being protected. If they did, who in their right mind would trust the government to pull it off? It's like people who send their kids to public school thinking they're really going to be safe and educated. They're either rolling their dice with the best option they have, knowing there's a significant likelihood of failure, or checking a box. "My kid's in school, I did what I needed to do, now it's someone else's problem."

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#585

Post by roenxi »

watwut wrote: post #505
xienze wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because this is leaning on blaming to UK for everything the US is doing to itself an awful lot. Hasn't the UK had a culture of surveillance (the famous CCTV cameras) and arresting people over online wrongthink for quite some time though? Who inspired who?

No it did not. Online right wing is trying to push narrative that is all.

The UK's culture on this stuff has been relatively famous since Orwell coined the term thoughtcrime. The major advantage the US has over the UK historically has been the oceans, but an interesting secondary one is the US was built by people who seemed to have a healthy fear of the extended groupthink sessions that the UK tends to fall into. It's always been something of a problem given how insular their upper class is.

The UK was an amazing leader on liberty in the days when absolute monarchies were the assumed default government, but their free speech standards are a long way from exemplary in modern times.

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#586

Post by andrepd »

mancerayder wrote: post #581
happymellon wrote: post #433

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but the war on anonymity was first (just) passed in the US at a state level as porn laws before it passed in the UK. Are we pretending that the porn id laws weren't a first attempt at getting forums like Reddit that might "accidentally" have naked pictures liable and therefore profile everyone? Because this is leaning on blaming to UK for everything the US is doing to itself an awful lot…

There are people in the replies below going back and forth about whether the US or the UK started the surveillance state first. I think as undemocratic as the US can behave in practice, it's hard not to argue that the UK won the CCTV surveillance race. London is heavily surveilled. And it doesn't help that someone just posted this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49255496

Hard not to argue in what metric? The US has Flock cameras spreading like the plague, if we're going purely based on vibes. And the Snowden disclosures about how they spy on their own citizens on a massive scale is over a decade old at this point.

Plus, a city covered in CCTV could theoretically be freer than one with much less coverage, if those cameras are recording to encrypted storage and accessible only with a judicial warrant, and the others are a lawless free for all with private and public operators hoovering up all the data.

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#587

Post by dennis_jeeves2 »

jollyllama wrote: post #584
chr15m wrote: post #254

The right people to protect children are those responsible for them - their parents and guardians. If there is a problem with children not being sufficiently protected, that is the level at which to solve it. Give families tools and information to do so.

They don't actually care about children being protected. If they did, who in their right mind would trust the government to pull it off? It's like people who send their kids to public school thinking they're really going to be safe and educated. They're either rolling their dice with the best option they have, knowing there's a significant likelihood of failure, or checking a box. "My kid's in school, I did what I ne…

> "My kid's in school, I did what I needed to do, now it's someone else's problem."

You got it right. This is exactly the attitude of most parents.

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#588

Post by Tangurena2 »

sophrosyne42 wrote: post #478
ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No ID checks at clubs, bars, or other adults-only venues. No school zone speed limits, or protected crossings on streets near schools. No requirements for railings on public balconies, fencing around public pools, protective covers over drains or other holes in the ground. Parents/guardians can just supervise. Sounds great!

Ok, take it the other way. You want to marry someone? Make sure the government approves for your safety. Want to make dinner? First you have to send the recipe to your local overseer with proof of your safe cooking credentials or you will have to pay heafty fines for noncompliance. Want to make love, read a book, speak your mind, make a contract with someone, work the job you want? Sorry, you can't decide that yourse…

> You want to marry someone? Make sure the government approves for your safety.

Historically, many states in the US required blood tests of both partners prior to marriage. Mostly it was a test for syphilis, which was the main reason that 16th ^ 17th Century people used tons of makeup. Do not google what that disease looks like in the tertiary stage if you want to sleep at night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarital_medical_examination

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#589

Post by inigyou »

like_any_other wrote: post #582
inigyou wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The UK "wrongthink arrests" were for stuff like calling for a building full of people to be burned down. While the US arrests you for criticising the police chief.

The UK arrests were also for stickers with: slogans such as “Reject white guilt”, “Nationalism is nurture”, “We will be a minority in our homeland by 2066” and “Diversity – designed to fail, built to replace” - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/16/uk-man-with-... "Stirring up racial hatred", even merely possessing material that could do so, is a crime in the UK: https://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence…

ok good. Except for the viewing thing. That one is crazy. Most of what you described is just disinformation though and I'm fine with the UK taking a different approach than the US.

Re: The UK's war on anonymity has come to America

#590

Post by account42 »

weberer wrote: post #387
drumhead wrote: post #368

We know what this is really about, its to give the UK intelligence services the ability to spy on US citizens and then pass the information on to US intelligence. We'll probably get similar laws in all the other five eyes as well.

That's not what this is about at all. Its British NGOs lobbying US states to pass state-level digital-ID laws. The end goal seems to be to make anonymous posting on the internet illegal. Its more about mass censorship than surveillance.

Mass censorship and surveillance go hand in hand - you use one to enforce the other.
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