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Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

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Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're moving to a world where it makes sense to have one cheap locked down phone with the society mandated garbage apps on it, and another device that you use for real computing.

How about saying no to these "mandates"?

Android is going to bifurcate between "phones that run proprietary apps from the play store" and "phones that run software from anywhere else." And while maybe you can get by without banking apps, your life is going to get increasingly harder when you want to do many other things.

Ride hail app? Transit fare app? Government ID app? Airline app? Maybe you don't need them yet, but the best way to model this future is to consider what you'd do if you didn't have a phone at all, and the amount of friction this will generate as the expectations are only entrenched and expanded.

I'm glad people are saying no. It's good to do it as long as we can. But the final outcome seems inevitable now and to me it feels very close.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Linux phones that we need. We already have alternatives, like graphene and other AOSP forks. We need corporations and governments to stop locking down and gatekeeping vital software to closed ecosystems. A Linux phone doesn't help me when my government's 2FA system (BankID) only runs on Android and IOS phones and can only be acquired with an app store account.

[flagged]

> Read their terms.

There are no such terms. In a comment further in this thread, you linked to inaccurate posts from an anonymous user on the Privacy Guides forum as your sources.

> They still run everything through Google services.

No, this is completely untrue. GrapheneOS doesn't have any mandatory connections in the first place.

> They are essentially a man in the middle to Google services.

No, GrapheneOS is a privacy and security hardened mobile OS. It isn't a proxy service and doesn't have any mandatory services. It does not come with Google Play services.

> I read their terms to mean that they could snarf everything that every graphene device would normally send to Google because they are "anonymizing it" before sending it to Google.

There are no such terms despite what's claimed in the incorrect anonymous posts you read.

> What we need is Android like Lineage that works on more devices than Pixels and simply have it without Google services at all.

GrapheneOS doesn't add a single Google service compared to the Android Open Source Project (AOSP). It replaces all of the standard AOSP default connections with our own servers by default. It also adds settings to control each of the connections. These settings mostly have a choice between GrapheneOS server, Standard (Google) server or Off.

LineageOS doesn't provide replacements for the Google services pr toggles for user control. This is covered in the third party comparison at https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm which provides an overview of what's done with most of the default AOSP connections. The table doesn't cover all the standard connections, but GrapheneOS does deal with all of them by replacing the standard servers and provides settings to control the connections.

We add opt-in services for geocoding and network-based location as an alternative to the Google service. We host geocoding ourselves with Nominatim using the standard OpenStreetMap, Wikipedia and other supplementary data. Our network-based location service has a choice between Apple or our proxy to Apple but we plan to build our own database to host it directly.

SUPL which is a limited form of network-based location has a choice between our proxy to Google, Google or Off. SUPL can be fully replaced by enabling network-based location and leaving the default enabled static global PSDS database downloads enabled. We'll be hosting our own SUPL server using our network-based location database once the much easier to build subset of the database for cellular towers is ready for use.

Google certified devices use Google's hardware key attestation root and service so supporting that inherently has to use either a proxy (our default) or their server including for a non-Android-based OS running on the same hardware which wants hardware attestation support to be functional. That's tied to the hardware ecosystem based on certification, not software. Non-Google-certified devices will use a different service for attestation key provisioning, either hosted by GrapheneOS or a proxy to the service by the hardware provider or certification authority.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country, partially due to sanctions, you can access the bank via browser and receive 2FA codes on $15 dumb phone. Also why do you need bank app on your phone? Do you like to give money to random strangers on the street? Only scammers need money urgently. Also it is not secure to use the phone as a single factor to access the bank. I do not have any bank apps on my phone (it is not even connected to the Internet…

> Also why do you need bank app on your phone? Many banks gate features like mobile check deposit behind the native app. The nearest ATM is 20 minutes away from my house, so unfortunately I consider this feature essential.

Carry a second cheap smartphone, like Pixel -a series or iPhone -SE. That one should be used for banking, government apps, for border inspections, etc. On your main GrapheneOS phone your financial app should be a Bitcoin wallet. The main phone should be off or in the BFU state when you are in a vulnerable situation.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"extremely reduced security" That's such a fun statement. Any security measures taken always remove agency from one person and give it to another. iOS takes my control away, and in turn gives that control to Apple. GrapheneOS takes my control away and gives that to the GrapheneOS developers. The "security" you're talking about doesn't prevent certain data from being accessed, it just changes who controls the access.…

Root access takes agency away from you and gives it to 3rd party software. It doesnt expand freedom at all, it just allows other software to abuse the user. With a proper security model and verified boot, you can be certain you, the user, are running exactly the OS you expect to run. You can also properly revoke permissions to software and gate access as you see fit. With root, you cannot guarantee you are running wh…

I just don't get why we need to argue about something — the right to general purpose computing — which has been answered decades ago?

The user must be the administrator of their own device. Whether that's a laptop, desktop, PDA, mp3-player, smartphone, tablet, cyberdeck, netbook, or any other kind of computing device.

The user must be able to overrule any and all decisions. That's the definition of ownership.

Like, this was the reason why GNU was founded, and before that was the plot of the movie TRON.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You seem to be greatly misunderstanding what is actually happening. You are conflating default OS domains with google play services. Google play services is not bundled or installed by default, and is not given any kind of privileged access when it is installed. It does not handle OS domains or functionality, and GrapheneOS does not proxy its connections in any way. As for the default domains of the OS, most are to G…

[flagged]

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also why do you need bank app on your phone? Many banks gate features like mobile check deposit behind the native app. The nearest ATM is 20 minutes away from my house, so unfortunately I consider this feature essential.

Interesting, I never saw a bank check. The companies typically transfer money directly into the account, and there are P2P transfers by a phone number working between any major banks. So I guess.. I do not need this feature.

Two cases when I've received a bank check without being able to choose an alternative: 1) as payment of proceeds in a class-action lawsuit; 2) when I got a refund from my insurance provider after changing the terms.

These might not be very common, but they're still not really rare in society either.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is - every server host does KYC and so does every domain registrar (by law). If you're found to have provided incorrect details, it allows them to immediately remove your server or domain without notice.

No there isn't, Google's requirement is to put that information publicly for everybody to see. That's not nearly the same thing as being available on court request. With that policy, Google encourages stalkers and put developers in danger.

A California law around a decade ago started it (a consumer protection law I think, something like requiring customers to have an address they can contact any seller at), and Google lazily applied it to everyone.

I would have been fine just preventing Californians from downloading my app, but that wasn't an option so I just let my app die.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not useless. It is like the missing printer driver for Linux Desktop. It makes the experience ugly, but this is not the fault of the Linux OSes. Also the bank should not require apps (instead they can offer hardware key support or desktop apps) and in fact some - at least in Germany - offer a different authentication possibility. Also the app for the German ID is published on fdroid and does not rely on Google servic…

There are plenty of banks in Germany which offer over-the-counter services, if you prefer to do banking as if it's 1999. Most of the time, when people say it's impossible to live without a smartphone, it's actually only impossible to enjoy the conveniences of the internet without a smartphone (at least in Germany). Besides these rentable scooters, I can't think of anything that actually requires a smartphone. Sure, y…

To add to the sibling comment, you are also ignoring the fact that in 1999 nobody had those conveniences, everybody was on equal ground. In 2026, if you handicap yourself by rejecting those "conveniences", you will be met by friction at every step - lower productivity at work, impatient looks from your family members etc.

Re: Android Developer Verification: Threat masquerading as protection

#590
post #147

My Android 15 handset doesn't have com.google.android.verifier process. It could be a Ulefone thing. They're especially pro-user (ex:root friendly).

Ex means "example" here right? Or do you mean ex as in the dictionary meaning of ex, as in, "formerly"?

> Ex means "example" here right?

Yes. eg would have worked too. ie didn't seem like a good fit.

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