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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#581

Post by rybosworld »

boringg wrote: post #469
rybosworld wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - but you could imagine a similar sentiment anytime a skill was replaced by a new technology. I think the jury is still out on whether LLMs actually lead to complete atrophy of skills that don't eventually get replaced with brand new skills.

Anecdotally people have been noticing atrophy quite a bit. Again its anecdotal because we can't possibly have a study that works in real time because the technology is rolling out insanely quickly. And all the older technologies that have rolled out haven't competed against our cognitive abilities at speed and scale. I don't think of cognitive ability as a skill per se - more of a critical core function of humanity.…

I don't disagree at all actually.

I am just not completely sure that we won't gain something new on the other side of this, in the same way the calculator outsourced the need for doing arithmetic in our heads.

My argument is more that, the speed and scale is so unlike anything that we've seen before, that this time _feels_ like more of an attack on something to core to what humanity is. But maybe it's just that: a feeling.

LLMs/AI could very well be the worst case scenario we are imagining/discussing here. I just don't think we know enough to say that's how it will definitely play out.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#582

Post by reducesuffering »

camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

“Better for you if you take me off.”

The Whispering Earring: https://croissanthology.com/earring

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#583

Post by noworriesnate »

One thing I’ve used in interviews is to write some code that looks like it was written by an overly enthusiastic engineer who just discovered some new concept (e.g. “trees are the ultimate data structures”) then have the candidate review the code. I wonder if this could work for education: orient the entire class around who can give the AI the best corrections.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#584

Post by fnordpiglet »

LEDThereBeLight wrote: post #536
fnordpiglet wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMS didn’t invent cheating just made it easier. When you cheat you’re the one who cheats yourself because the point of an education is to learn, not complete the assignments and get high marks on tests alone. No one benefits and no one other than you is materially hurt by cheating, but you are absolutely the one who is hurt. There’s no way to learn than to force the brain into adaptation which it is resistant to do…

To say that students don’t benefit from getting good grades using LLMs is incredibly naive. Learning is only about the third or fourth most important “benefit” for students, after getting a degree, getting good grades, and making connections.

These matter about getting the first job you get, at which point what you learned begins to dominate the rest of your career and life. The connections you made at school matter less and less as your connections in your career dominate, and they are built on what you can do, which is based on what you’ve learned.

Does anyone look at GPA on a resume? I’ve hired thousands of people I’ve never once looked at GPA. (N.b., my resume has “summa cum laude” ok it and no one has ever once mentioned it or presumably noticed it, despite the fact you only really get it if you can BOTH learn the material AND get perfect grades)

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#585

Post by Forgeties79 »

throwawy33z wrote: post #465
Forgeties79 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I don’t believe a thing they’re saying. Just look at the demographics of any Ivy League school and you’ll see it can’t be true

My kid applied to Brown and others and the prep company we hired ($150/hr) spent more time going through the "sob story" the parent talked about than any other requirement (kids scores are to be fair quite decent already).

I’m not saying that it’s dumb money to go with a sob story college admission essay, I just don’t think they’re being truthful with their experience. It reads like someone lifted a comment from /r/conservative about what they think the admissions process is.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#586

Post by whimblepop »

Writing better exams, even if they're more expensive to grade, and removing homework from grading as far as possible addresses this problem well wherever it's applicable. Senior-level math courses at many universities are already like this: homework is ungraded, or counts for little, and it's possible for students to "cheat" on the homework by copying another student instead of struggling through the exercises. But the students who do that don't learn much, if at all, and predictably fail the exams. Professors warn students at the beginning of the class and tell them how this will work, something like:

> You can always ask me for feedback on your homework and I will mark up every part of it, but you won't receive a grade for homework. However, if you don't do the homework and take your time with it, you will fail the class. My office hours are in the syllabus and you're strongly encouraged to use them. There will be an early exam to give you a chance to know whether you are likely to fail this class before you lose your chance to drop it.

Correctness is harder to adjudicate in some humanities disciplines but the format of these exams is actually not super different from essay tests (when a math professor grades a proof, they're inspecting specialized prose for validity, coherence, persuasion in a way that also reveals knowledge).

When you don't rely on homework for determining whether or not a student passes the class, you make cheating on the homework into the student's problem instead of the professor's or the university's. Students have the right incentives to solve problems for which they are the ones responsible, and they figure it out after one failed (or ideally, dropped) class at worst.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#587

Post by boelboel »

technothrasher wrote: post #261
boelboel wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with AI in an educational setting is when one is graded versus their students on things and things genuinely depend on those grades. Group projects also force those willing to do things without AI to go along with others in their group who'll use it regardless.

My son just finished his first year in college, and had no trouble getting decent grades without using AI while many of the kids around him were using it. At least in his humanities track, class participation is a lot of his grade, and he said the "AI kids" tended to suck at participation because they hadn't actually thought about the material, and couldn't dynamically work with it in class. He also said their AI ass…

Makes sense the ones who can't tell that AI does a piss poor job at writing get bad grades. In a humanities track I can certainly see how going basically completely no AI should be an advantage. Even in a other tracks it should be better, especially if professors think out assignments well. Group assignments are my biggest worry as in some classes they can really make/break a grade, working with those believing in AI would certainly be a disadvantage.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#589

Post by jventura »

LovelyButterfly wrote: post #573
jventura wrote: post #241

CS Professor here: just yesterday I did the discussion of a course projects' (Parallel Computing), and one of the three groups that I did yesterday have clearly gone the ChatGPT way. They couldn't even understand the choices the LLM made regarding the architecture, etc. The way to "catch" these students is similar to what we did in the past when students copied from other students which is "to give them rope to hang"…

As a professor, what's you opinion regard the Socratic method with LLMs? Would that be preferable over simply "give me the answer" prompt?

Everything that provides students with a workflow to think and to try to find solutions to a problem is much better than giving the answer directly! Unfortunately there will always be students that prefer to take the shortcut..

How could we "force" the students to use an LLM that confronted their doubts with more questions? We could tell them to start each chat with a specific prompt (to use the socratic method, etc), but they could eventually jail-break it..

But nevertheless, I like your idea! This is something that a document highlighting methodologies for students on how to use LLMs effectively could/should contain..

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#590

Post by lucb1e »

alphabeta3r56 wrote: post #514
acaloiar wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students. Could you explain?

One big reason is preparation, people start preparing for tests 2 to 3 years in advance. And the method of testing influences exams used in grades before as well. So assume 4 years of high school and someone that just came in. They are still preparing for SAT like tests in their first year of high school. Someone in final year of high school is well trained in it. So even though the benefits do not carry, enough port…

> people start preparing for tests 2 to 3 years in advance

Pardon? Is that a normal thing in the USA? I don't think I've ever started preparing for a test more than a week and a half ahead, a month if you count graduation exams. Not sure they ever determined more than a year in advance (more commonly: a bit less than a semester) what tests we'd be given in the first place

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