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New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

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Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#581

Post by mootothemax »

tomxor wrote: post #417
mootothemax wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is Avon? Welsh for river.

Hah TIL. So it's the river Welsh river on the English side of the Bristol channel. I often feel like I would understand a lot more names if I bothered learning Welsh. It's pretty popular for made up climbing route names too, because Wales is so good for it I guess. Allegedly some of the classics in the Avon gorge are Welsh derived but I could never figure them out to be sure.

It’s lovely isn’t it? There’re a good few of these things around: notably Torpenhow Hill (which killjoys dispute); and ones like Pendle Hill (which they don’t).

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#582

Post by mootothemax »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #440
mootothemax wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is Avon? Welsh for river.

The Welsh "afon" derives from the earlier Celtic "abona" meaning "river". Also related to the Celtic "afanc" which was some kind of aquatic monster.

Makes sense given Welsh’s evolution from Britannic. Much to my shame, I only started visiting Wales in later life, and there’s really something in the language that grabs me quite deeply. Once I’ve got my Polish down to pat, I tell myself.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#583

Post by Ancapistani »

mindslight wrote: post #308
Ancapistani wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure; lots of people self-identify as anarchists while holding beliefs that are diametrically opposed to my own, and lots of people who are much closer to my own beliefs call themselves other things because they’re either afraid of the word “anarchism” or understand it to mean something else. If I had to ballpark it, I’d guess something like 1:5 people in tech are broadly aligned with me politically (meaning…

Not really, as you keep missing my larger point about authoritarianism marketing itself as anarchism/libertarianism. And that dynamic seems to be quite prevalent in Surveillance Valley.

> lots of people self-identify as anarchists while holding beliefs that are diametrically opposed to my own

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#584

Post by like_any_other »

EchoReflection wrote: post #577
mr-wendel wrote: post #544

Rather than try to score points for team X (or against team Y), I'll quote one of my favs. Please generalize as needed to suite your perspective. "I don't get all choked up about yellow ribbons and American flags. I see them as symbols, and I leave them to the symbol-minded." -George Carlin

that's a good quote. I have to say though, despite the appeal of "rejecting 'tribalism' ", it is (or should be) "undeniable" that some "tribes" are "better" than others. There are reasons literally nobody wants to go to North Korea and people all over the world want to "flee" to countries that are meritocracies and support ideas like freedom of speech, women's rights, freedom of religion, etc. "Nobody" would claim (a…

That's like arguing that yes we should use knives, because some knives are better than others. Whether some are better is irrelevant - what matters is they're useful. Those without a nation, without a group identity, are outcompeted by those with one. The person preaching individualism in a team sport is either incredibly ignorant, or simply malicious.

It also discounts the value of groups, absent concerns about competition. No man is an island, and the society you grow up in, the people you grow up with, greatly affect who you become and what your life is like. To say it doesn't matter who you live around discards all that, or reveals the profound mistake (or lie) of thinking who makes up a society doesn't affect what the society is like.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#585

Post by like_any_other »

monooso wrote: post #443
_hark wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. The safety of the message is underwritten by its state sanction.

In what way is this statue state sanctioned?

In addition to the other explanations (it's in the heart of London and not being removed), it's also advancing the government position of deconstructing national identity (for Britons): https://britainmagazine.co.uk/diversity-built-britain-50p/

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#586

Post by briansm »

EchoReflection wrote: post #577
mr-wendel wrote: post #544

Rather than try to score points for team X (or against team Y), I'll quote one of my favs. Please generalize as needed to suite your perspective. "I don't get all choked up about yellow ribbons and American flags. I see them as symbols, and I leave them to the symbol-minded." -George Carlin

that's a good quote. I have to say though, despite the appeal of "rejecting 'tribalism' ", it is (or should be) "undeniable" that some "tribes" are "better" than others. There are reasons literally nobody wants to go to North Korea and people all over the world want to "flee" to countries that are meritocracies and support ideas like freedom of speech, women's rights, freedom of religion, etc. "Nobody" would claim (a…

In the developed world we have 'energy slaves' instead; around 100 per person in the USA in the 2020's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_slave

This is arguably the reason why the Overton window has shifted towards the rejection of human slavery over the last century or so, with the growth of fossil fuel use.

Human slavery will thus likely swing back into fashion again in the future as oil, coal and natural gas run out.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#587

Post by inkersp »

Ralfp wrote: post #548
appreciatorBus wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the extra time you invested to let me know. So to return the favor, I’ll add a couple of sentences too. A year ago I would never have made such a comment. My understanding about the issues boiled down to approximately: - queer theory is some sort of reasonably academic pursuit that has something to do with gay people - trans is just gay rights 2.0; clearly anyone who has any concerns is a raging bigot Ne…

Noting that you use exclusively gender critical sources (and some very poor ones to add, like Littman's "study") while also having history of blaming "wokism", I seriously doubt you have given this subject a fair consideration. Interesingly, so called "gender critical" movement is increasingly pivoting to other conservative or plainly reactionary talking points. For example, the book you are recommending makes a thin…

> For example, the book you are recommending makes a thinly veilded point that "promoters of trans ideology" are rich jewish men, key figure among them being George Soros.

This is untrue. Please read the author's response to this false allegation: https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/p/a-wild-ride.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#588

Post by toraway »

twoodfin wrote: post #47
forgotusername6 wrote: post #4

I think it's a reasonable statue. But does anyone else think it's a bit obvious, more so than his other work? Like there is no doubt on the meaning at all, it's all right there on the surface level.

I have the same reaction to Banksy, and figure he and his audience just have to be in on the joke? I can’t discount there’s some layered irony going on in conversation between the artist and the intellectual / capitalist / trend-setting elite that are his effective patrons. “I remember when all this was trees” [1] is maybe the best example. Detroit hasn’t been “trees” in something like two centuries. Platitudes douse…

Considering that line is supposed to be written by a young child in-context (who couldn't actually "remember" anything more than a decade earlier, I'm pretty confident the intent was not to reference the actual recent history of urban deforestation in Detroit. So this attempt to fact-check the art doesn't actually work at all here.

Off the top of my head, I'd guess the message is closer to an observation about being disconnected from history in the modern world leading to vaguely defined feelings of angst and alienation.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#589

Post by danparsonson »

lynx97 wrote: post #332
danparsonson wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...which is a blatant false equivalence, to be clear.

Matthew 7:3–5 I am not religious, but this quote keeps coming up... And people keep forgetting about it.

Forgive me if I'm mischaracterising you but you seem to be not only reinforcing the false equivalence but in fact doubling down on it? That trans rights protesters are not only morally equivalent to nationalist protesters, but in fact, in some way more of a problem? A plank in the eye vs a mote of dust?

When I say 'false equivalence' in this context I don't mean 'nationalist protesters are all bad and trans rights protesters are all good'. Of course there are bad actors in the trans rights camp, people who are blinded by their own flag; likewise I'm sure there are well-intentioned and peaceful nationalists who are simply misinformed. I submit to you however that the number of, and danger presented by bad actors in the former camp is severely limited compared to the bad actors in the camp of people who hate foreigners and wish to see them expelled and/or commit violence against them. Even without comparing actual events, that would seem to be self-evident given the trans rights cause itself is centered around support and love for a group of people, and once you do compare actual events the difference is obvious. I've been in the presence of a nationalist rally once, and even as a cis white guy it was a scary thing. I would have absolutely no qualms whatsoever showing up to a trans rights march.

Do you really think the two are basically morally equivalent? That someone could not reasonably criticise rising and widespread nationalist hatred if they don't also, with the same vigour, also call out a handful of zealots aggressively pushing for acceptance and fair treatment?

As I said I totally accept I may have misunderstood you and/or the other commenters here, so please enlighten me if so.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#590

Post by gerdesj »

mootothemax wrote: post #283
gerdesj wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flag is unadorned and I think you can extend your interpretation to include the proliferation of flags which have a minimal "history". Banksy is from Bris'l which is sort of north Somerset (Somerset keeps on morphing faster than a sci-fi shapeshifter). Cornwall has had a white cross on a black flag since 18something. Devon decided to adopt a black edged white cross on a green flag. I remember seeing Devon flag ca…

> what is Avon? Welsh for river.

There is also a nebulous region within England that might be called Avon, depending on the moon's phase and the price of loons.

There is a river Avon in England. Welsh at least (inst. celtae) has a noun for "river" which is "afon".

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