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Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

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Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#581
post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> basic rules that had been in place for ages. Things like: [...] I am going to add my favorite here, just to rant into the void. A dialog box's options must never be Ok/Cancel. These are not the same sorts of things. "Cancel" is a verb, "Ok" is a noun (in this context). Even if "Ok" is taken to mean the verb "acknowledge", it is still not an alternative to cancelling. 99% of these dialogs should be "[Verb]/Cancel":…

IMO the ubiquitous Yes/No/Cancel is even worse. No and Cancel are too conceptually close. Doesn't help that these usually show up when you're about to lose all your unsaved changes. We've got big screens now! use more words! Save changes/Discard changes/Don't quit.

"cancel" means cancel the last operation (e.g. "quit the program", "yes/no" is an action taken on the prompt.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Package Identity isn't that different from Signed COM Registration of the ancient past. Microsoft built up a lot of dislike from it by building it "sandbox-first", but the core of it still isn't that different from COM's ancient footpaths, at least to the COM diehards that hate .NET and didn't learn near enough from .NET's battles with the same things in terms of package signing, CAS (Code Access Security), and the G…

One significant difference is that Metro/UWP requires signing for pretty much everything. Without signing you can't have package identity, and without package identity, you can't even use the UI system. Furthermore, it requires a paid cert, which is expensive and requires publicly divulging your identity. I have major problems with this as it opens developers up to harassment. .NET at least allowed self-signed certs.…

> .NET at least allowed self-signed certs.

The GAC and certain CAS configurations would require paid certificates, too. Certainly the requirement of paid certificates can be seen as a part of how both of those eventually fell out of favor. That is another of the things I felt UWP missed learning from .NET. Developers do generally dislike code signing certificates and try to avoid them.

Also to be fair, UWP had a rather streamlined certificate system if you targeted only the Store and let the Store manage your certificate chain. It was even a little bit easier to use than Apple's similar App Store management of XCode certificates. Not that that was a high bar to clear.

> It was also not a good look that Microsoft's own flagship applications like Visual Studio and Office did not show any progress toward adopting UWP

There was some progress. Office involves a lot of teams working at different paces and sometimes extremely different codebases. OneNote was fully UWP for a while and was at one point considered a flagship and testbed for UWP "Fluent Design" (both before and after the shift from touch-first to the over-correction to "it's just a desktop framework that sometimes is touch friendly"). Several new Office apps were written UWP first, including the "Office Hub" app that became called just "Office" and now is even more confusing called "Microsoft Copilot 365 app". "Outlook (New)" has always been React Native, but as a React Native project, it ran entirely in UWP, too, for a while. It was said to have been one of the drivers for deep UWP support in React native at the time. There were also the React Native-based Word, Excel, and PowerPoint "mini" versions that ran entirely in UWP. Those are said to have influenced more of the real codebases pushing towards React Native, but did not try to replace the original codebases in the same way that "Outlook (New)" today is overtaking "Outlook (Classic)".

There were a lot of strategy problems with UWP, but adoption was further along in some areas than it looked.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#583
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a different issue. Things like Electron are popular not because native development is buggy, but because most developers these days are web developers . They know Javascript. They've never written anything in C/C++ or even the slightly friendlier Swift, Rust, or Go. Electron lets people who only know the Web make desktop apps.

Nope, it is the same issue now being worded around to sell the Apple is shiny story above.

> Apple is shiny story

Is a fantasy you invented to argue against.

Microsoft’s 1st party offerings are an embarrassment.

Apples first party offering isnt amazing either; it’s just “ok”; but its not a total embarrassment.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#584
post #480

What I find must puzzling is that everyone seems to just be violating basic rules that had been in place for ages. Things like: - If you can't respond to a UI event wait until you can - Menus should be tree structures - Pressing alt should underline the hotkeys you need to access anything clickable As well as just basic responsiveness or predictability. A 2000 era windows application may not have been pretty, and may…

It's because we went from the Desktop environment, where rules were well-documented and standardized, to the Web/Mobile environment, where rules had to be reinvented and, for the most part, were not. We've lost design idioms , which is a huge tax on users everywhere. I've been mad about this for years: https://essays.johnloeber.com/p/4-bring-back-idiomatic-desig...

Another reason is that in 2000 if you wanted pointless UI wank you had to implement it yourself from scratch. Today with bloated frameworks where the developers ran out of ideas 15-20 years ago and have filled the intervening time adding wank that no-one asked for and no-one needs, everything you build with it gets to include every brain fart someone had at 4am back in 2017 that they thought looked cool at the time.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you're asking for has existed for a long, long time. QML.

QML doesn't have a way to define interfaces with JSX and doesn't integrate with the wider JS tooling. From my very limited experience, it still feels too close to the C++ world.

This isn't true, but I understand why you feel that way.

Qt had bindings to many languages, C++ is a choice, not a demand, if you'd like to use Qt.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 3.1, with the aproppiated drivers and modern SVGA card, had accelerated 2d graphics. Accelerated GUIs don't even need GPU or 3d.

What does "GPU" mean here? Previous uses of the term seemed to imply "dedicated hardware for improving rendering performance" which the SVGA stuff would seem to fall squarely under.

We used to call those things a "Video Card", which you put into your computer to get a video signal out.

Back in the day there was a card called an S3 Virge, which we affectionally called a 3D decelerator card, because of its lacklustre 3D performance.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a striking difference between windows and linux at this point is that the linux UI frameworks are hyper stable. If I want to make a linux desktop app, I'll choose QT or GTK. Heck, if I want to make a windows and macOS app, I'll probably choose QT or GTK. What do I chose with Windows? Who knows. It literally changes every time I look into it. That's just insane. It's gotten so bad that probably the right way to…

win32 seems to be stable, albeit a bit dated. It's good enough for small things (at least good enough for m$ to use)

I'm still using Win32 (via WTL) to write a developer focused application, but I know that someday I will need to switch to Qt, dear ImGui, or develop my own UI abstraction layer.

The biggest disappointment has been that all new OS features require a new runtime and are not accessible from just pure Win32 any more. Heck the pipeline for developing UWP/WinUI3 apps requires extra steps to register and install the application just to run it inside a debugger.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#588
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, at first pass I’d say the source availability has little to do with the topic at hand. But on second thought it might be rather significant. No company would finance making 2x identical cross platform apps, but if you have a pool of OS folks who are free to contribute at their leisure, the calculus changes a bit.

But isn't the whole point of linked article is that author doesn't like regular apps because it lacks control over UI and functionality compared to Web apps? Being open-source is kinda even better in that regard.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#589
post #161

> WPF was good As someone who saw what impact WPF had on average users running average hardware in the late 2000s to early 2010s, I disagree. In 2011, my brother was in seminary, using an average Windows Vista-era laptop that he had been given in 2008. When he was home for Christmas in 2011, we were talking about his laptop, and he told me that the Logos Bible software ran sluggishly on that laptop. He said something…

It goes back pretty far. Nowadays the controversy is electron vs native (where most windows devs would consider WPF/.NET a native option). But if you read books from the 2000s, there was much discussion about the performance overhead of a VM and garbage collected language; something like WinForms was considered the bloated lazy option. I’m sure in a few years computers will catch up (IMO they did a while ago actually…

I do not think the current computers can catch up with Electron. When it is just one or two simple app it is ok, but when everything is built with Electron (which is happening now) then it is not enough even with 32gb+ ram.

Re: Microsoft hasn't had a coherent GUI strategy since Petzold

#590
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It lacks hardware acceleration.

Does it need it?

Good point. Akin to Qt Widgets - it doesn't really need it on desktop. HW acceleration is crucial on mobile, but WinForms doesn't have a story there.
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