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Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

blog.alaindichiappari.dev

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Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#581

Post by toddmorey »

tsunagatta wrote: post #112
toddmorey wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fun to ask the models their input. I was working on diagrams and was sure Claude would want some python / js framework to handle layout and nodes and connections. It said “honestly I find it easiest to just write the svg code directly”.

That is fun, but it doesn’t mean that the model finds it easier or will actually work better that way, that just means that in its training data many people said something like “honestly I find it easiest to just write the svg code directly” in response to similar questions

Maybe. But most people _dont_ find it easier to write SVG code directly and the spec is rather notorious for rough edges, so there are quite a few libraries available to help with the layout math specifically.

Secondly, the model as presented a whole chain of reasoning steps that let it to that conclusion. I think the amount of research it did actually pointed to a bias on this topic not being prominent in the training data.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#582

Post by exe34 »

skydhash wrote: post #566
exe34 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I say I was manufacturing a device? You just proved my point.

You wrote > I would hate to have a boss/client that says "it needs to do X" and the framework writer (or SDK, ala Android/Xcode) say "no, that hurts my profits/privacy busting". An answer to such request should be: "We would need to ship a custom version of Android". Just like if you need to setup a web server on a Linux system, you would need to be root. You don't choose a shared hosting and then complain about the…

that's amazing, shared hosting on the device I bought. no thank you. I'll root the damn thing and do as I please. If future devices don't allow that, I won't have a reason to carry them in my pocket.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#583

Post by bodge5000 »

scotty79 wrote: post #558
bodge5000 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean as has already been pointed out the fact that its a clone is a big reason why, but then I also think I could probably churn out a simple clone of reddit in less than a week. We've been through this before with twitter, the value isnt the tech (which is relatively straightforward), its the userbase. Of course Reddit has some more advanced features which would be more difficult, but I think the public db probabl…

Double your estimate and switch the unit or time to next larger one. That's how programmers time estimate tend to be. So two months and I'm right there with you.

That only counts if its something you care about. If you throw maintenance out the window (eg you dont close off your db) it gets a lot easier

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#584

Post by stuartaxelowen »

dasil003 wrote: post #275
mark242 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that it's going to be the opposite. At re:Invent, one of the popular sessions was in creating a trio of SRE agents, one of which did nothing but read logs and report errors, one of which did analysis of the errors and triaged and proposed fixes, and one to do the work and submit PRs to your repo. Then, as part of the session, you would artificially introduce a bug into the system, then run into the bug…

I agree with both you and the GP. Yes, coding is being totally revolutionized by AI, and we don't really know where the ceiling will be (though I'm skeptical we'll reach true AGI any time soon), but I believe there still an essential element of understanding how computer systems work that is required to leverage AI in a sustainable way. There is some combination of curiosity of inner workings and precision of thought…

It is tempting to think that we can delegate describing the mental model to AI, but it seems like all of this boils down to humans making bets, and it also seems like the fundamental bets engineers are making are about the formalisms that encode the product and make it valuable.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#585

Post by bodge5000 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #543
coldtea wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it’s not just a glorified CRUD app In what way (that's not related to the difficulty of scaling it, which I already addressed separately)? The point of my comment was: "Somebody with AI cloning Reddit in a week is not as special as you make it to be, all things considering. A Reddit clone is not that difficult, it's basically a CRUD app. The difficult part of replicating it, or at least all the basics of it…

Calling Reddit a CRUD app isn’t wrong, it’s just vacuous. It strips away every part that actually makes Reddit hard. What happens when you sign up? A CRUD app shows a form and inserts a row. Reddit runs bot detection, rate limits, fingerprinting, shadow restrictions, and abuse heuristics you don’t even see, and you don’t know which ones, because that knowledge is their moat. What happens when you upvote or downvote?…

> Reddit runs bot detection, rate limits, fingerprinting, shadow restrictions, and abuse heuristics you don’t even see, and you don’t know which ones, because that knowledge is their moat.

> Reddit says “run a ranking algorithm refined over years, with vote fuzzing, decay, abuse detection, and intentional lies in the UI.” As the number you see is not the number stored.

> etc...

The question is; is moltbook doing this? That was the original point, it took a week to build a basic reddit clone, as you call it the silhouette, with AI, that should surely be the point of comparison to what a human could do in that time

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#586

Post by Ygg2 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #578
carlmr wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Moltbook isn't that sophisticated. We're moving goal posts a lot here. However, I do think 1 week is ambitious, even for a bad clone.

So if Reddit is just a CRUD app, what is Moltbook?

An impressive MVP of Reddit, with zero sophistication. It's a CRAP app.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#587

Post by qualifck »

gtowey wrote: post #493
athrowaway3z wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see why people are skeptical devs can be 10x as productive. But something I'd bet money on is that devs are 10x more productive at using these tools.

At the company I work for, despite pushing widespread adoption, I have seen exactly a zero percent increase in the rate at which major projects get shipped.

This is what keeps getting me. People here keep posting benchmarks, bragging about 5x, 10x, 20x. None of the companies we work with are putting anything faster.

The evangelist response is to call it a skill issue, but looking around it seems like no one anywhere is actually pushing out new products meaningfully faster.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#588

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

toddmorey wrote: post #581
tsunagatta wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fun, but it doesn’t mean that the model finds it easier or will actually work better that way, that just means that in its training data many people said something like “honestly I find it easiest to just write the svg code directly” in response to similar questions

Maybe. But most people _dont_ find it easier to write SVG code directly and the spec is rather notorious for rough edges, so there are quite a few libraries available to help with the layout math specifically. Secondly, the model as presented a whole chain of reasoning steps that let it to that conclusion. I think the amount of research it did actually pointed to a bias on this topic not being prominent in the traini…

The reasoning steps would also be based on the training set ... it's "predict the training set" all the way down.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#589

Post by insin »

goostavos wrote: post #228
MrDarcy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment ignores the key insight of the article. Design is what matters most now. Design is the difference between vibe coding and software engineering. Given a good design, software engineers today are 100x more productive. What they produce is high quality due to the design. Production is fast and cheap due to the agents. You are correct, there will be a reckoning for large scale systems which are vibe coded. T…

>software engineers today are 100x more productive Somebody needs to explain to my lying eyes where these 100xers are hiding. They seem to live in comments on the internet, but I'm not seeing the teams around me increase their output by two orders of magnitude.

If they did a year of work in ~3 days, presumably they're on a beach somewhere.

Re: Coding agents have replaced every framework I used

#590

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

kaydub wrote: post #362
verdverm wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You both are likely incorrect, the answer lies in the middle rather than the extremes

I think a lot of the people pro-llm are already in the middle. It's the naysays that are sticking to a strict definition of "vibe coding" as if it's random people typing in "make me $app but make no bugs" and getting a 100% working $app with no bugs. You have the gastown folks trying to do that, but nobody serious putting in good work with llm agents is "vibe coding" in that way.

> as if it's random people typing in "make me $app but make no bugs" and getting a 100% working $app with no bugs

Yes, that's literally how LLMs are sold to management.

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