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I miss thinking hard

jernesto.com

581–590 of 764 posts

Re: I miss thinking hard

#581
> skipping the process of creation you trade the thing you could have learned

Most comments in the thread are missing that critical point. Yes you are achieving the end goal, perhaps faster. And yes, built projects (perhaps worse quality) are still better than not built projects.

But take the home cooking vs ordering at restaurant example:

At a restaurant you can prompt for exactly what you want to eat and it will be made for you without you actually having to do it. When the food comes out you can taste it and notice it is missing some flavor. Problem is, you don't know what is missing. If you are knowledgeable about the dish, you can prompt for additional spices or flavours.

When I cook, I try all the ingredients before I add them and then taste the result so I know how an addition changes the final result.

I am now a much better cook because of this because I can make substitutions on the fly. Dish missing sweetness? Carrots, baby red peppers, beets etc can all substitute - never even reach for sugar. Already added a lot of salt but still feels like more needed? Add sour flavours like lemon juice.

Sure, reliance on AI will end up with more things built but you'll have a generation of "cooks" that don't know why you add a bay leaf or two to soup, except that it's always in recipes.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#582
post #22

Dude, I know you touched on this but seriously. Just don't use AI then. It's not hard, it's your choice to use it or not. It's not even making you faster, so the pragmatism argument doesn't really work well! This is a totally self inflicted problem that you can undo any time you want.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have their company measuring their AI usage and regularly laying people off.

And speak of the devil. Apparently the next round of layoffs had already started when I posted this, unbeknownst to me.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#583
"I always felt that deep prolonged thinking was my superpower. I might not be as fast or naturally gifted as the top 1%, but given enough time, I was confident I could solve anything. I felt a deep satisfaction in that process."

In psychological terms, he's saying he has a need to solve hard problems in order to validate his identity and make himself feel good. At some point in his past he experienced some psychological trauma, and this hard-problem-defeating became his coping mechanism.

"That satisfaction is why software engineering was initially so gratifying."

He became a software engineer to gratify his need to solve hard problems, to validate his identity, and make himself feel good. If he stops needing to engineer difficult software, there goes his identity, his self-worth, his good feeling.

"But recently, the number of times I truly ponder a problem for more than a couple of hours has decreased tremendously. Yes, I blame AI for this."

When he runs up against something that takes away this thing that validates him, he feels de-valued. Rather than recognize that AI is making his life easier, freeing him up from mental labor, he's experiencing it as a loss, almost an attack.

"If I can get a solution that is “close enough” in a fraction of the time and effort, it is irrational not to take the AI route. And that is the real problem: I cannot simply turn off my pragmatism."

Now this link of hard work with his identity is becoming a problem. He's going to feel bad because he doesn't know how to deal with his life being easier now. This is a reason to address it head on with therapy, and a re-evaluation of what gives him value as a person, so that having an easier life doesn't feel bad.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough but I am a programmer because I like programming. If I wanted to be a product manager I could have made that transition with or without LLMs.

Agreed. The higher-ups at my company are, like most places, breathlessly talking about how AI has changed the profession - how we no longer need to code, but merely describe the desired outcome. They say this as though it’s a good thing. They’re destroying the only thing I like about my job - figuring problems out. I have a fundamental impedance mismatch with my company’s desires, because if someone hands me a weird…

Though it is not like management roles have ever appreciated the creative aspects of the job, including problem solving. Management has always wished to just describe the desired outcome and get magic back. They don't like acknowledging that problems and complications exist in the first place. Management likes to think that they are the true creatives for company vision and don't like software developers finding solutions bottom up. Management likes to have a single "architect" and maybe a single "designer" for the creative side that they like and are a "rising" political force (in either the Peter Principle or Gervais Principle senses) rather than deal with a committee of creative people. It's easier for them to pretend software developers are blue collar cogs in the system rather than white collar problem solvers with complex creative specialties. LLMs are only accelerating those mechanics and beliefs.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#585
post #32

This March 2025 post from Aral Balkan stuck with me: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/114160190826192080 "Coding is like taking a lump of clay and slowly working it into the thing you want it to become. It is this process, and your intimacy with the medium and the materials you’re shaping, that teaches you about what you’re making – its qualities, tolerances, and limits – even as you make it. You know the least about wha…

> Being handed a baked and glazed artefact that approximates what you thought you wanted to make

Isn't this also an overstatement, and the problem is worse. That is - the code being handed back is a great prototype, needs polishing/finishing, and is ignorant of obvious implicit edge cases unless you explicitly innumerate all of them in your prompts??

For me, the state of things reminds me of a bad job I had years ago.

Worked with a well-regarded long tenured but truculent senior engineer who was immune to feedback due to his seniority. He committed code that either didn't run, didn't past tests, or implemented only the most obvious happy path robotically literal interpretation of requirements.

He was however, very very fast... underbidding teammates on time estimates by 10x.

He would hand back the broken prototype and we'd then spend the 10x time making his code actually something you can run in production.

Management kept pushing this because he had a great reputation, promised great things, and every once in a while did actually deliver stuff fast. It took years for management to come around to the fact that this was not working.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#587
post #32

This March 2025 post from Aral Balkan stuck with me: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/114160190826192080 "Coding is like taking a lump of clay and slowly working it into the thing you want it to become. It is this process, and your intimacy with the medium and the materials you’re shaping, that teaches you about what you’re making – its qualities, tolerances, and limits – even as you make it. You know the least about wha…

And when programming with agentic tools, you need to actively push for the idea to not regress to the most obvious/average version. The amount of effort you need to expend on pushing the idea that deviates from the 'norm' (because it's novel), is actually comparable to the effort it takes to type something out by hand. Just two completely different types of effort. There's an upside to this sort of effort too, though…

Uniqueness is not the aim. Who cares if something is uniquely bad? But in any case, yes, if you use LLMs uncritically, as a substitute for reasoning, then you obviously aren't doing any reasoning and your brain will atrophy.

But it is also true that most programming tedious and hardly enriching for the mind. In those cases, LLMs can be a benefit. When you have identified the pattern or principle behind a tedious change, an LLM can work like a junior assistant, allowing you to focus on the essentials. You still need to issue detailed and clear instructions, you still need to verify the work.

Of course, the utility of LLMs is a signal that either the industry is bad at abstracting, or that there's some practical limit.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#588
post #32

This March 2025 post from Aral Balkan stuck with me: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/114160190826192080 "Coding is like taking a lump of clay and slowly working it into the thing you want it to become. It is this process, and your intimacy with the medium and the materials you’re shaping, that teaches you about what you’re making – its qualities, tolerances, and limits – even as you make it. You know the least about wha…

That quote sounds like special pleading for artisans.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#589
I've been coding since the late 70s (Commodore PET 2001), and I've always paired it with real-world physical work—mechanical engineering, rigging, technical diving, hydraulics, welding, electronics, controls, you name it. Programming was just one of the tools, never the whole job. What I've learned is that the best thinking almost never happens staring at a screen. It happens when you're away from it: reading something deep, building something with your hands, debugging why the thing you designed doesn't work in reality. I love the updated saying: "Jack of all trades, master of none—but often better than a master of one." In a world obsessed with hyper-specialization, that range is a real advantage. What bothers me most is how quickly people—especially younger ones—now reach for a phone the second there's any friction. Forgotten a name? Phone. Stuck on a small logic puzzle? Phone. A group of engineers at the lunch table can't remember an actor and within seconds everyone's just silently googling instead of laughing and piecing it together from their collective memory. Where's the fun in that? Yeah, you get the answer instantly. But you skip the actual mental workout—and the fun of it. Remembering and reasoning are muscles. Use them or lose them. And honestly, the shared back-and-forth is usually the best part.

Re: I miss thinking hard

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when programming with agentic tools, you need to actively push for the idea to not regress to the most obvious/average version. The amount of effort you need to expend on pushing the idea that deviates from the 'norm' (because it's novel), is actually comparable to the effort it takes to type something out by hand. Just two completely different types of effort. There's an upside to this sort of effort too, though…

Fair enough but I am a programmer because I like programming. If I wanted to be a product manager I could have made that transition with or without LLMs.

I became an auto mechanic because I love machining heads, and dropping oil pans to inspect, and fitting crankshafts in just right, and checking fuel filters, and adjusting alternators.

If I wanted to work on electric power systems I would have become an electrician.

(The transition is happening.)

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