Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

581–590 of 969 posts

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#581

Post by watwut »

terminalshort wrote: post #529
dragonwriter wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RTO mandates are about many things, but actual business value of being in the office to the business doing the mandate is low on the list. Among the things it is about: (1) Executives with emotional attachment to certain leadership styles that are enabled by physical presence, (2) Interest in the investor class for the commercial real estate market. The business impacted may not be invested in it, but the businesses’…

2 and 3 aren't real. Nobody gives a damn about their shareholders other investments, and no one company has the numbers to save them anyway. And nobody is dumb enough to do RTO as a layoff proxy because anybody with a brain knows you're going to lose the people with options, who are exactly the people you don't want to lose. 1 is spot on.

3 is very real. Sometimes even openly so, as in an executive telling it out loud.

> And nobody is dumb enough to do RTO as a layoff proxy because anybody with a brain knows you're going to lose the people with options, who are exactly the people you don't want to lose.

Here is what our CEO told me once: layoffs always mean you loose more people then those you just fired. That is unavoidable and can amount to additional 30%. And obviously those will be those with options. He said that you can not avoid nor control this factor, there is no point in overly fretting about it. From his point of view, people always have agency to leave and layoffs and surrounding chaos always annoy people and weaken their ties.

These arguments based on "we do not want to loose good people in layoffs" are off mark. Company will loose good people in layoffs.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#582

Post by mhuffman »

guiriduro wrote: post #570
otikik wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just (3)

Two things about backdoor layoffs. Mostly its about who. When its corporate dictat, those most likely to leave are those with other options, ie the best talent. So sure a business might save on severances in aggregate, but it doesn't get to decide on who, but simple statistics show it will be the best who move on. So a demoralised and increasingly mediocre workforce is then faced with a much tougher hiring environmen…

>All for what exactly, control?

No, quarterly earnings. In this case, retained earnings, but they want to show profits in a situation with high inflation, stagnant employment, and other issues where customers are not as spendy as they once were.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#583

Post by pjmlp »

guiriduro wrote: post #570
otikik wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just (3)

Two things about backdoor layoffs. Mostly its about who. When its corporate dictat, those most likely to leave are those with other options, ie the best talent. So sure a business might save on severances in aggregate, but it doesn't get to decide on who, but simple statistics show it will be the best who move on. So a demoralised and increasingly mediocre workforce is then faced with a much tougher hiring environmen…

The move of offshoring in many projects, changed my mindest that companies care one second about their talent, at a size like Microsoft is all about replaceable cogs, little ants every doing their own small task.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#584

Post by oblio »

randomfool wrote: post #571
intended wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 is real, this is what was behind Amazon’s RTO mandates. Its designed to ensure that people decide to quit.

From a source closely involved with this- Amazon tracks many productivity metrics of employees and was seeing very significant differences between in-person and remote people, which drove the decision. Source left since so I don’t know how much productivity has improved. Advice to new grads: get into the office 5 days a week for at least a few years.

Those numbers were so convincing they have been shared with employees... 0 (ZERO) times.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#585

Post by pjmlp »

thedevilslawyer wrote: post #514
gedy wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So pay me enough to afford a home nearby so I can work in the office. Hell, I'll wear a suit too. Oh, I can only get enough to commute in from an exurb 1+ hour commute each way? Buzz off. Been working since the 80s, and no company has ever paid me enough to buy anything nearby. So I gave up 15 yrs ago and now work full remote where I could afford something.

To be fair, we're the highest paid profession, and the work isn't that difficult either.

Only if you're talking about US market.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#587

Post by oblio »

yepitwas wrote: post #533
whateveracct wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dead on. In software especially, we have established ways for distributed individuals to collaborate (FOSS). RTO is meant to coddle the waterfall-addicted executive class.

It's pretty funny to watch e.g. some little FOSS console game system emulator—an actual toy, or at least, a project in service of a toy and of game-playing, to a large extent, but also technically more challenging than a lot of corporate work—or maybe some FOSS MMO server re-implementation coordinate development across continents with nothing but IRC, email, and Github (if that, LOL) and do it efficiently with little…

KDE was supposed to run on Windows, starting 15 years ago. Linux was supposed to flawlessly support laptop sleep and hibernate, 20 years ago. Gimp was supposed to support 32 bit colors (I think) 15 years ago. Etc, etc.

The money is there so that things that are desired happen mostly on time.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#588

Post by wiseowise »

RHSeeger wrote: post #506
foogazi wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They work better with you sitting next to them /s

You /s, but that's actually a fair point - Some people work better at home, away from the office - Some people work better in the office, with their co-workers around them Those two facts are at direct odds with each other. It's unfortunate, but you can't give both groups what they want.

So when it’s my idiosyncrasy I’m supposed to shut the fuck up because it’s unprofessional, but when it aligns with whatever goals of some middle manager I’m supposed to take one for the team, because Bob the baby needs a grown up man sitting next to him?

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#589

Post by watwut »

nickff wrote: post #261
johnnyanmac wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if WFH was just as good for the company, and more attractive to employees, we should see a boom in WFH-first companies, which does not seem to be happening. In this economy, you can't even make a company, let alone profess their benefits. This is all intentional. If/when the economy recovers and funding is flowing around, I predict we will see this huge boom in WFH companies, especially with startups. Unfortunately…

If WFH is a good deal for both sides (in a particular industry), I would expect new entrants to use it as a competitive advantage against existing businesses (likely hiring away talented staff). I agree that web-tech business formation seems depressed, but WFH should eventually win the day if it is all that advocates say. I expect WFH will expect, while remaining relatively niche, much like worker co-operatives.

Small companies use it as competitive advantage against existing businesses.

The market is fully captured and you do not win by having better productivity or by being able to attract better people. You win by attracting a lot of capital and by being able to eventually create quasi monopoly. You think hot AI companies are somehow productive? They are in massive looses. Or that all those corporations have super productive workforce? Anyone who worked there knows they dont.

The econ 101 thought experiments are just that - thought experiments about ideal world. They have much less to do with how actual companies operate.

Re: Microsoft is officially sending employees back to the office

#590

Post by wiseowise »

thedevilslawyer wrote: post #514
gedy wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So pay me enough to afford a home nearby so I can work in the office. Hell, I'll wear a suit too. Oh, I can only get enough to commute in from an exurb 1+ hour commute each way? Buzz off. Been working since the 80s, and no company has ever paid me enough to buy anything nearby. So I gave up 15 yrs ago and now work full remote where I could afford something.

To be fair, we're the highest paid profession, and the work isn't that difficult either.

That’s a fair statement, we should start giving blowjobs and dance like strippers to justify our salary.
Post reply on HN