Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City • Hacker News Board

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#581

Post by mothballed » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 8:11 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #568

AngryData wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you allow a vehicle to run a red light that you aren't driving?

Easy: 1. Allow someone else to drive your vehicle 2. That person runs a red light Your responsibility as the vehicle owner is to either not do step 1, or only do it for people whom you trust will not do step 2.

You don't even have to 'allow' them. Either you could live in a community property state, where your spouse, even a spouse who has initiated divorce against you, legally also owns the vehicle that is in your name. Or someone could steal it. Or someone could steal or duplicate your plates and put it on a nearly identical car, which happened to a friend who had to spend years fighting all the tickets that were mailed to him when an entirely different car (same make/model) used his same plate numbers.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#582

Post by mritterhoff » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 8:31 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #364

mritterhoff wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in terms of throughput though. Buses and trains still have em beat.

In rural places, not only are there no buses or trains, there's hardly any taxis. Maybe during the day if you wait an hour or two, but you're not getting home at night without your own car. A couple robot taxis roaming around every rural country in the US comprehensively solves this problem.

Agree. Though I imagine the cost to run robot taxis in low density areas would be much higher than in high density areas, as there'd be a higher distance between rides, and so more wasted time and gas. I suspect that would slow adoption.

Also if we dream big here, I wonder how robot buses would work in low density areas, maybe with dynamic routes and pricing?

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#583

Post by jakelazaroff » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 9:01 PM UTC

mothballed wrote: post #581

jakelazaroff wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy: 1. Allow someone else to drive your vehicle 2. That person runs a red light Your responsibility as the vehicle owner is to either not do step 1, or only do it for people whom you trust will not do step 2.

You don't even have to 'allow' them. Either you could live in a community property state, where your spouse, even a spouse who has initiated divorce against you, legally also owns the vehicle that is in your name. Or someone could steal it. Or someone could steal or duplicate your plates and put it on a nearly identical car, which happened to a friend who had to spend years fighting all the tickets that were mailed t…

If you can show that your vehicle or plates were stolen, you won't have to pay the ticket; in NYC that is explicitly listed as a possible defense [1].

The spouse thing honestly seems fine — it just means that you're both responsible for paying the ticket, rather than you alone — but if you have an issue it's with the property laws, not the red light cameras.

[1] https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/vehicles/red-light-camera-v...

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#584

Post by throwaway0123_5 » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 9:29 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #559

throwaway0123_5 wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubtless some would ignore it, but you can go to jail for driving on a suspended license. I suspect there are a lot more people willing to risk a traffic ticket and a few $100 in fines for speeding, bad lane changes, etc. than there are people willing to risk jail for driving on a suspended license.

Obviously it’s not 100% meaningless, but the kind of people losing their licenses here correlate with the kinds of people who will take these risks. Thus for many it’s a symbolic gesture until the next time something happens which is little different than simply doing nothing until the next incident like say 3 strike laws.

I think that is probably true now (in the US), but the hypothetical is that it is made easier to lose your license.

DC recently banned "right on red" but it is routinely ignored and the penalty is apparently a $100 fine. If the penalty was loss of license (maybe not on first offense) I think there's a lot of people ignoring the current rule that would not be willing to ignore the possibility of losing their license.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#585

Post by MisterMower » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 9:33 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #538

MisterMower wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think taxes on gasoline are for? You’re absolutely right, roadways are insanely expensive. That’s why it’s infuriating to see entire lanes expropriated for cyclists.

Road wear is fourth power of axel weight, so trucks/lorries are overwhelmingly the cause of what repair money gets spent on fixing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law Complaining about cyclists getting bike lanes is like complaining about pedestrians getting footpaths.

No, it would be like a city building a dog park and then having parents bring their kids to the park and demanding that dog owners keep their dogs on leashes while in the park.

By your logic, this is fine because the kids aren’t pooping in the park which degrades it less.

Never mind that the park was created for dog owners, and their enjoyment of it is impaired by these new restrictions placed on them by people who shouldn’t even be there.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#586

Post by mothballed » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 9:36 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #583

mothballed wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even have to 'allow' them. Either you could live in a community property state, where your spouse, even a spouse who has initiated divorce against you, legally also owns the vehicle that is in your name. Or someone could steal it. Or someone could steal or duplicate your plates and put it on a nearly identical car, which happened to a friend who had to spend years fighting all the tickets that were mailed t…

If you can show that your vehicle or plates were stolen, you won't have to pay the ticket; in NYC that is explicitly listed as a possible defense [1]. The spouse thing honestly seems fine — it just means that you're both responsible for paying the ticket, rather than you alone — but if you have an issue it's with the property laws, not the red light cameras. [1] https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/vehicles/red-light-cam…

My friend "showed" the plates were not his (he couldn't prove the car wasn't stolen because it wasn't -- they only copied his plate) but they kept sending him tickets because apparently it only counts for one ticket. They wanted him to go through a laborious process every time. I think he finally just stopped challenging them because it took too much time, and probably can't go to that state again unless he wants his car seized.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#587

Post by spauldo » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 10:03 PM UTC

throwaway0123_5 wrote: post #584

Retric wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously it’s not 100% meaningless, but the kind of people losing their licenses here correlate with the kinds of people who will take these risks. Thus for many it’s a symbolic gesture until the next time something happens which is little different than simply doing nothing until the next incident like say 3 strike laws.

I think that is probably true now (in the US), but the hypothetical is that it is made easier to lose your license. DC recently banned "right on red" but it is routinely ignored and the penalty is apparently a $100 fine. If the penalty was loss of license (maybe not on first offense) I think there's a lot of people ignoring the current rule that would not be willing to ignore the possibility of losing their license.

Any US jurisdiction that bans right on red is going to see a lot of violations - mostly from people who are unaware of the law or people who know the law but accidentally do it out of habit. If DC wanted to stop people from turning right on red, signs would be the only effective solution.

At least with Arizona, it's the whole state so most drivers won't have the habit.

Of course, if DC just wants to take in a lot of easy $100 tickets, this is exactly the way to do it.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#588

Post by jakelazaroff » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 10:06 PM UTC

mothballed wrote: post #586

jakelazaroff wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can show that your vehicle or plates were stolen, you won't have to pay the ticket; in NYC that is explicitly listed as a possible defense [1]. The spouse thing honestly seems fine — it just means that you're both responsible for paying the ticket, rather than you alone — but if you have an issue it's with the property laws, not the red light cameras. [1] https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/vehicles/red-light-cam…

My friend "showed" the plates were not his (he couldn't prove the car wasn't stolen because it wasn't -- they only copied his plate) but they kept sending him tickets because apparently it only counts for one ticket. They wanted him to go through a laborious process every time. I think he finally just stopped challenging them because it took too much time, and probably can't go to that state again unless he wants his…

Sounds like the issue here is that the police aren't doing their job!

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#589

Post by spauldo » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 10:10 PM UTC

AlecSchueler wrote: post #537

mcny wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a consistently reliable public transit system before we tell people they can't drive for one reason or another.

Allow drink driving in places with no metro system? There are obviously lines to be drawn in what you allow, for the safety of others, regardless of the alternatives. That said, we can absolutely work on improving public transport at the same time. There's no reason to have to fully solve public transport before trying to tackle dangerous driving.

People don't need to drink. They do need to get to work, pick up the kids from school, buy groceries, etc.

Re: Waymo granted permit to begin testing in New York City

#590

Post by ben_w » Sat, Aug 23, 2025, 10:10 PM UTC

MisterMower wrote: post #585

ben_w wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road wear is fourth power of axel weight, so trucks/lorries are overwhelmingly the cause of what repair money gets spent on fixing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law Complaining about cyclists getting bike lanes is like complaining about pedestrians getting footpaths.

No, it would be like a city building a dog park and then having parents bring their kids to the park and demanding that dog owners keep their dogs on leashes while in the park. By your logic, this is fine because the kids aren’t pooping in the park which degrades it less. Never mind that the park was created for dog owners , and their enjoyment of it is impaired by these new restrictions placed on them by people who…

Your analogy is the bad one here.

To be like that, almost everyone would need to own a dog, and everyone including the non-dog-owners would have things delivered by dog, the dog park would have to actively block access to most places, and the fees for the dog owners pay for the dog park would have to be insufficient for the dog park and the park instead subsidised by general taxation even from the people who only get stuff delivered by dog… which would be quite fair and reasonable because almost all the damage to the dog park that the maintenance fees would need to cover, would be due to specifically the delivery dogs.

The actual point of the dog park fees in this scenario would be to reduce the usage of the dog park, due to everyone riding their dogs everywhere. Which is a heck of a mental image.

Roads aren't for pleasure, they're economic infrastructure that some people happen to enjoy.