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Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

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Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something missed in arguments such as these is that in measuring fair use there's a consideration of impact on the potential market for a rightsholder's present and future works. In other words, can it be proven that what you are doing is meaningfully depriving the author of future income. Now, in theory, you learning from an author's works and competing with them in the same market could meaningfully deprive them of…

> a consideration of impact on the potential market for a rightsholder's present and future works This is one of those mental gymnastics exercises that makes copyright law so obtuse and effectively unenforceable. As an alternative, imagine a scriptwriter buys a textbook on orbital mechanics, while writing Gravity (2013). A large number of people watch the finished film, and learn something about orbital mechanics, th…

Well I mean you're constructing very convoluted and weak examples.

I think, in your example, the obvious answer is no, they're not entitled to any profits of Gravity. How could you possibly prove Gravity has anything to do with someone reading, or not reading, a textbook? You can't.

However, AI participates in the exact same markets it trains from. That's obviously very different. It is INTENDED to DIRECTLY replace the things it trains on.

Meaning, not only does an LLM output directly replace the textbook it was trained on, but that behavior is the sole commercial goal of the company. That's why they're doing it, and that's the only reason they're doing it.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#582

Hang on, it is OK under copyright law to scan a book I bought second hand, destroy the hard copy and keep the scan in my online library? That doesn't seem to chime with the copyright notices I have read in books.

> That doesn't seem to chime with the copyright notices I have read in books.

I used to get scared by such verbiage. Courts ruled decades ago that many of those uses are actually permitted, under very common conditions (e.g. not distributing, etc). Yes, you totally can photocopy a book you own, for your own purposes.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#583
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have rights, machines don't. Otherwise, maybe give machines the right to vote, for example?...

If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. Its like, taking notes, or google image search caching thumbnails. Honestly we dont even need the learning metaphor to see this is obviously not an infringement.

> If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn.

No, you can't. The only thing you can learn with is your own mind (e.g. loading notes into your laptop is not you learning).

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#584
post #307
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Stealing" isn't an apt term here. Stealing a thing permanently deprives the owner of the thing. What you're describing is copyright infringement, not stealing. In this context, stealing is often used as a pejorative term to make piracy sound worse than it is. Except for mass distribution, piracy is often regarded as a civil wrong, and not a crime.

I think you make a good point, but there is some irony in pointing out the distinction between colloquial and legal use of the term “stealing” while also misusing the term “piracy” to describe legal matters. It would be more clear if you stick to either legal or colloquial variants, instead of switching back and forth. (Tbf, the judge in this case also used the term “piracy” colloquially).

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Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing? In what way? Training a generative model on a book is the mechanical equivalent of having a human read the book and learn from it. Is it stealing if a person reads the book and learns from it?

But a language model is not a person, it’s a copy machine with a blender inside. Photocopying books in their entirety for commercial use is absolutely illegal.

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Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. Its like, taking notes, or google image search caching thumbnails. Honestly we dont even need the learning metaphor to see this is obviously not an infringement.

> If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. No, you can't. The only thing you can learn with is your own mind (e.g. loading notes into your laptop is not you learning ).

Right but there's more potential reproducibility in the notes than the AI model. Like other than some philosophical aversion to the word "Learn" its clearly not infringing.

>loading notes into your laptop is not you learning

I dont want to get too distracted by this, but tptb really hate me (questioning american notions of excellence draws the eye of sauron) and have limited my posting. Note taking is actually crucial to my actually learning things. I am largely a kinaesthetic learner, but when it comes to pure data retention, if I am not writing it out, it goes straight through. Note taking is crucial to my learning new things and retaining data, and I know I am not the only one.

Heck its a common (or was common) for writers to completely rewrite, by hand the books of "great" authors to try and learn their "voice".

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#587
post #437

The important parts: > Alsup ruled that Anthropic's use of copyrighted books to train its AI models was "exceedingly transformative" and qualified as fair use > "All Anthropic did was replace the print copies it had purchased for its central library with more convenient space-saving and searchable digital copies for its central library — without adding new copies, creating new works, or redistributing existing copies…

Im not sure how I feel about what anthropic did on merit as a matter of scale, but from a legalistic standpoint how is it different from using the book to train the meat model in my head? I could even learn bits by heart and quote them in context.

Machines do not have rights belonging to human now.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#588
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are comparing AI to humans, but they're not the same. Humans don't memorise millions of copyrighted work and spit out similar content. AI does that. Memorising isn't wrong but when machines memorise at scale and the people behind the original work get nothing, it raises big ethical questions. The law hasn't caught up.

As a former musician, yes, we do. Any above average musician can play "Riders on the Storm" in the style of Johnny Cash, or Green Day, or Nirvana, etc. Successful above average musicians usually have almost encyclopedic knowledge of artists and albums at least in their favorite genre. This is how all art is made. Some artists will be more honest about this than others.

Again, you are comparing machines with humans. We're built for depth, not scale. Machines are built for scale, not depth.

I also play the guitar, and it took me 10 years to learn 30 or 40 songs. So I don't see how anyone can learn 7 million songs in a couple of minutes.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#589
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The paradigm is that teachers will teach life skills like public speaking and entrepreneurship. Book smarts that can be more effectively taught by AI will be, once schools catch up.

I agree. The world is changing fast, but we need to make the transition less painful for everyone. The way things are going now only benefits big tech.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#590
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trial is scheduled for December 2025. That's when a jury will decide how much Anthropic owes for copying and storing over seven million pirated books

Yes, that would by an interesting trial. But it is only about six books, and all claims regarding Claude have been dismissed already. So only the internal copies remain, and there the theory for them being infringing is somewhat convoluted: you have to argue that they are not just for purposes of training (which was ruled fair use), and award damages even though these other purposes never materialised (since by now,…

A couple of books?

Anthropic faces billions of dollars in damages for pirating over 7 million books to build a digital library.

The trial is scheduled for December 2025. That’s when a jury will decide how much Anthropic owes for copying and storing over 7 million pirated books

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