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Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#581

Post by RestlessMind »

HappMacDonald wrote: post #492
tossandthrow wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, that the society does not owe you 10 years to do whatever.

And why wouldn't a society owe its citizens anything after 40+ years of keeping their nose at the grindstone, and obeying all of its laws? Society is defined by what we owe one another in pursuit of civil interactions with one another. If the only contract society offers me is "work your hands to the bone and then be discarded once you can't work anymore" then I have no incentive to keep up my side of the contract an…

Then you just fall back to a small trusted circle of family and friends. Or, what we used to call a tribe or a clan back then.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#582

Post by lkbm »

HappMacDonald wrote: post #492
tossandthrow wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, that the society does not owe you 10 years to do whatever.

And why wouldn't a society owe its citizens anything after 40+ years of keeping their nose at the grindstone, and obeying all of its laws? Society is defined by what we owe one another in pursuit of civil interactions with one another. If the only contract society offers me is "work your hands to the bone and then be discarded once you can't work anymore" then I have no incentive to keep up my side of the contract an…

Do you consider life not worth living during the time of your life when you're working?

What do you think you get if you don't hold up your side of the bargain? It's not like the state of nature was an early retirement.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#583

Post by jltsiren »

amag wrote: post #409

This is truly sad. As a Swede I fear my country may follow suite. The retirement age in Sweden used to be 65 and now it's 67. Looking at older people around me, most lead a much less active life after 75. So, if we were lucky we used to have some 10 good years of doing whatever we wanted before old age and age-related diseases start affecting us so much we become limited to a much smaller world. But now we have maybe…

There is nothing sad about this. Mandatory pensions are not a vacation sponsored by the government but a way to provide for those who can't provide for themselves.

If you were born in the 70s, you should have known for most of your adult life that your normal retirement age is likely going to be around 70. The demographic situation is not new, the solutions have been discussed extensively since at least the 90s, and countries that take the situation seriously have implemented several pension reforms since then.

You are not going to be as wealthy in retirement as you are now, at least not on the mandatory pension alone. Your health is probably not going to be as good. If you live in Sweden, you should have plenty of vacation. If you think you would enjoy travel, golf, or climbing a mountain, you should do it now. It will probably be easier and more affordable now than in retirement, which may never come.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#584

Post by prinny_ »

charcircuit wrote: post #307

What's stopping people from just saving up money and stop working before 70?

2 reasons. First, the ratio of salary to expenses is so high that they don't have a meaningful amount to save towards retirement. Savings go towards rainy days and when those come they drain what little you have amassed. Second, if you haven't hit a minimum number of working years you just don't get a pension.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#585

Post by prawn »

joelthelion wrote: post #379
stevesimmons wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't all have to work to age 70. Anyone can stop working earlier, and fund their own retirement.

That's true. But I'd argue that everyone is better off when most people can chose to retire early, rather than the select few who are smart and disciplined enough to plan an early retirement.

There are multiple pension-related plans to supplement or replace the government pension, and most work in ways so that it's not just "smart and disciplined" people.

Retirement age in Australia is 67. A report from 2024 going on the 2022/23 FY said the average age at retirement (of all retirees) was 56.9 years. People typically plan for 65.

Couldn't find Danish data, but 43% in AU rely on a government pension. 27% on superannuation or similar (I assume this will grow a bit). Those reporting no personal income is down from 24% to 12% over the last 10 years.

Here, companies compulsorily pay 11.5% into super funds for staff.

All that said, I'd rather see more support for people living in their prime rather than being tied to a desk. I don't see the point in purely waiting until retirement.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#586

Post by RestlessMind »

pyuser583 wrote: post #537
const_cast wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bring in more young people via economic opportunity and immigration. Making kids easier to have really only has two real options: 1. Go back down the development timeline of a nation and remove rights from women (bad). 2. Implement more social programs to incentivize children. The reason we need to do 2 now and not in the past is we've developed. Women have rights now, and we need real reasons for them to have kids,…

Not having anyone to care for the old isn’t a reason?

If everyone thinks that government will take care of them when they are old, they will prefer spending time on "self actualization" (whatever that means) instead of the boring dull work of raising kids.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#587

Post by celeritascelery »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #496
timschmidt wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pension is a Ponzi scheme. Explained in terms of economic theory, if everybody works and saves in time period 1, and retires and receives pension in time period 2, then... their pension is worthless, because there's infinite inflation, because no more goods and services get produced. You've created an impossible situation which will never exist and then offered it as an example of why taking care of the elderly, so…

I think what they missed is that people typically work for much longer than they are retired. If the periods were of equal length, I think the Ponzi scheme thing would be true. As is its sort of a modified fractionated ponzi.

Seniors are also really expensive. By some estimates you spend half of your lifetime healthcare cost in the last five years of your life. It typically takes multiple working people to support a single senior on government benefits.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#588

Post by tokai »

mrcwinn wrote: post #22
deanc wrote: post #4

I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m based in the Nordics and my estimated retirement age at the moment (where I can get my state pension) is 67y 4m. Whilst I understand the burden the aging population is having on society (lifespan) it doesn’t seem like there’s much proactive government input into people’s healthspan. Maybe instead we should try investing in this area (reducing the burden on services) instead of…

As an American, I’m often that countries like Denmark are in fact constantly investing in health and entitlements, and so everyone is healthier and happier. Is that not the case?

Denmark is not constantly investing in health and entitlements at all. On the contrary unemployment benefits and such has been slashed. Over the last two decades there has been many broad cuts to public services. The health sector had to do percentage fixed cuts every year for several years in a row.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#589

Post by slyall »

amag wrote: post #409

This is truly sad. As a Swede I fear my country may follow suite. The retirement age in Sweden used to be 65 and now it's 67. Looking at older people around me, most lead a much less active life after 75. So, if we were lucky we used to have some 10 good years of doing whatever we wanted before old age and age-related diseases start affecting us so much we become limited to a much smaller world. But now we have maybe…

Well if you have enough money to do all that then you probably have enough to retire a little early. Why not stop working at 60 and fund the first few years of your retirement out of your savings?

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#590

Post by drweevil »

timschmidt wrote: post #534
tomp wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why taking care of the elderly, something humans have done since before recorded history Well yeah, but before government-organised pension, it was your kids taking care of you when you get older, so the system was much more balanced (or rather, only imbalanced on the micro scale, not at a mega scale we see now...)

> it was your kids taking care of you when you get older This oversimplification has never been true. Humans evolved in extended family groups generally between 30 - 300 people. And humans are far more promiscuous and willing to adopt chosen family than most will admit. The nuclear family is a shockingly recent invention.

Word. I haven seen so many misconceptions about our state here in these comments, planted in our consciousness by our capitalist system to justify its existence. This, that we don't naturally rely on mutually supporting each other, is one of them. That our elderly are useless and unproductive, is another one. That it will take people working until they are 70 and utterly worn out to provide the pitifully inadequate support our society provides our elderly and our poor, is yet another one. Such inhumane beliefs persist all while a tiny minority skim off a sizeable proportion of the the wealth our labor produces for themselves.
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