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I'd rather read the prompt

claytonwramsey.com

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Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#581

Post by [deleted] »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #496
sn9 wrote: post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

A non-STEM friend got to study/research at really great places across India, Germany, UK, USA, and China for her UG, MA, MPhil, PhD, and postdoc (including lots of field/on ground work). She said that she noted one common theme among her seniors (guides, mentors, colleagues, professors etc) -> that some bad, shit, low quality, whatever published paper is >>>>>>>>>>> high quality work/research but not published or slo…

[deleted]

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#582

Post by dep_b »

jameshart wrote: post #329
sn9 wrote: post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

If I could have a healthy and good looking physique by never going to the gym I would never go to the gym.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#583

Post by chrisandchris »

xeyownt wrote: post #488
zeroq wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing trees for forest. When I was a kid and got an assignement for writing an essey about "why good forces prevailed in Lords of the Rings" as a gate check to see if I actually read the novel I had three choices: (a) read the novel and write the essey myself (b) find an already written essey - not an easy task in pre-internet era but we had books with esseys on most common topics you could "copy-paste" - an…

> Novice programmer will claim that LLM give them power to take on hard tasks and programm in languages they were not familiar before. But they are not gaining any skill nor knowledege from that experience. Not true. Using LLM to learn quickly a new programming language + being productive is best method ever. If you pay attention, you acquire rapidly new skill and knowledge, and those that are relevant to your job. U…

> Using LLM to learn quickly a new programming language + being productive is best method ever. If you pay attention, you acquire rapidly new skill and knowledge, and those that are relevant to your job.

I tend to disgree. maybe for you, but my mind does not work that way.

As a teacher at a university I come to see that students "learn" by asking an LLM, but they forget to understand the content the LLM produces because the LLM actually solves the assignment (mostly) for them. One may say that's the teachers task to produce better questions, but the thing I most "struggle" with that getting educated as a student seems to just be a play of "gaming the system". Yes, it was similar during my time (learning how to reach your goal with as less effort as possible is a good part of the "education" at a university IMHO), but we actually had to think and understand while today just seems like prompt-and-copy.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#584

Post by Mbwagava »

Mbwagava wrote: post #437
jameshart wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

> If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. Does the use of a quantifiable metric like a GPA not exacerbate this? In a world where people take a GPA seriously, you'd have to be irrational to not consider cheating a viable option. You could say the same about credit score and dating apps. These institutions assist the most predatory and harm the most vulnerab…

Ooh ranked gaming, too. Also any kind of market activity.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#585

Post by Mbwagava »

nine_k wrote: post #436
animal_spirits wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, if a student can get a diploma without work, then the diploma does not have value anymore. If diplomas are no longer valuable, the signal they provide in the labor market will turn into noise. If employers no longer look for the diploma-signal in an employee, what will be the reason an employer will hire an employee? I think this story will become true, and society will radically shift into one where critica…

In a medieval guild, to be admitted as a master, an apprentice had to create a chef d'oevre, or masterpiece, so called for this reason. In the computer engineering industry, you increasingly have to demonstrate the same: either as a part of your prior work for hire, or a side project, or a contribution to something open-source. A diploma is still a useful signal, but not sufficient, except maybe for very junior posit…

Apprentices were supported, tho. We just chuck kids out in the cold with college debt and hope they survive with little reason to think they will.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#586

Post by lawn »

fallinditch wrote: post #289
sn9 wrote: post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

It's been obvious since ChatGPT blew up in early 2023 that educators had to rethink how they educate. I agree that this situation that the author outlines is unsatisfactory but it's mostly the fault of the education system (and by extension the post author). With a class writing exercise like the author describes, of course the students are going to use an LLM, they would be stupid not to if their classmates are usin…

> With a class writing exercise like the author describes, of course the students are going to use an LLM, they would be stupid not to if their classmates are using it.

Its only stupid if you try to optimize for the wrong things (finishing quickly, just getting a pass).

I'd say it's very smart if you don't rely on LLMs, copy the homework from someone else, or similar; because you're optimizing for learning, which will help you more than the various shortcuts.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#587

Post by Mbwagava »

concordDance wrote: post #570
animal_spirits wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, if a student can get a diploma without work, then the diploma does not have value anymore. If diplomas are no longer valuable, the signal they provide in the labor market will turn into noise. If employers no longer look for the diploma-signal in an employee, what will be the reason an employer will hire an employee? I think this story will become true, and society will radically shift into one where critica…

Honestly, a future where diplomas are just noise and employers stop caring about them and thus young people stop wasting years of their lives "learning" something they don't care about sounds like a huge improvement. LLM cheaters might incidentally be doing society a service.

I don't think diplomas have mattered for decades, at least in tech. Let's not pretend anything improved with the introduction of chatbots.

Annyway, any advantage is entirely offset by having to live in a world with LLMs. I'd prefer the tradition of having to educate retarded college graduates. At least they grow into retarded adults. What are we gonna do about chatbots? You can't even educate them, let alone pinocchio them.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#588

Post by kharak »

mlsu wrote: post #344
jameshart wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

The point of education isn't to actually learn though. It's to receive the credential. This is much larger than a cultural problem with the students of today. They believe, rightfully and accurately, that the university degree is yet another part of the machine that they will become a cog in. What should be alarming to everyone is that these students will graduate without having learned anything and then go into the…

An anecdote to add to this:

Me and most of my peers in college had the choice between two courses. Course A was interesting, yet vastly more challenging and therefore time consuming, with the additional downside of lower grade expectation. Course B was boring, a gentle breeze in comparison, yet with an almost guaranteed perfect grade.

Imagine which course most students choose?

Even if a student wants to take on the more interesting course, incentives matter, and the incentive is: better grades qualify for better compensated positions and prestigious degrees. Only students who didn't care about this or were confident enough in their ability did choose Course A. In the end, barely a handful of students out of hundreds went with A.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#589

Post by immibis »

Ma8ee wrote: post #462
7bit wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving. No. It has value, because companies value it. It sets the starting point for your first salary and then for every salary negotiation moving forward. As someone who did not go to university, but has the same knowledge self-taught I can tell you that this piece of paper would have opened so many doors and made life so much easier. It took…

And companies value it because it signals that the holder of that paper can do the work and isn’t completely stupid.

Originally, yes, but hiring practices are about as inbred as the artistic tastes of the demoscene, so now they value it because they value it.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#590

Post by Jensson »

samplatt wrote: post #477
Ma8ee wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And companies value it because it signals that the holder of that paper can do the work and isn’t completely stupid.

In reality, holding a piece of paper has nothing in common with relevant ability. Some graduates will exit university as competent people, some won't. This isn't exactly news, or even a recent phenomenon. My peers who finished their CS degree circa 2004 ish were a broad mix of utter idiots who shouldn't get a job in that field, or damn sharp (if green) technically-minded people, or somewhere in between. The industry…

There is a correlation, that is all you need for it to be valuable. Remove the correlation and value isn't there any more, see US masters in computer science for example that one doesn't correlate with skill so it isn't valued, but the bachelor is. In countries where a masters is correlated with skill they are values though.
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