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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#581

Post by roywashere »

impossiblefork wrote: post #529
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

But you will brush your teeth anyway, and then you apply fluoride topically. It works. Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic. It isn't sensible to use systemic exposure when we can use topical exposure and can improve mouth health by education, so that people do what they're supposed to. The fluoride approach achieves a basic level of health, but you can do s…

Somewhat related, as a teen in the 90s I worked at McDonald’s in The Netherlands. Because of the diet in the US, the bread used for hamburgers contained extra calcium to be more ‘healthy’, because many people did not get enough calcium intake. In The Netherlands, where people drink much more dairy products, especially back in the 90s, people would get plenty of calcium so there was no need to put extra in the bread. But because a hamburger should be a hamburger no matter where you buy it worldwide, the Dutch McDonald’s hamburger bread still had the added calcium

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#582

Post by danparsonson »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #570
danparsonson wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with slippery slopes is that they carry you away from productive discussion.

The trouble with slippery slopes is that not all of them are fallacious, as you are suggesting. This is a reasonable point: if we are doing delivery of medicine through tap water, where's the line? A few people have seriously suggested putting low doses of lithium in the tap water as a societal antidepressant.

The line is where we've drawn it now - nothing has changed in decades. A few people suggest all kinds of things, that doesn't make them at imminent risk of happening.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#583

Post by belter »

zouhair wrote: post #577
impossiblefork wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you will brush your teeth anyway, and then you apply fluoride topically. It works. Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic. It isn't sensible to use systemic exposure when we can use topical exposure and can improve mouth health by education, so that people do what they're supposed to. The fluoride approach achieves a basic level of health, but you can do s…

Just an FYI, water is also toxic.

Indeed: "Water Intoxication" - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/water-intoxic...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#584

Post by thelastgallon »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #562
karparov wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also restricting the freedom of communities if you ban them from adding fluoride to their water if they like to. This ban is anti-freedom. (Just like forcing them could be argued to be, even though that's what you argued against.) So, this ban is arguably reducing freedoms on multiple levels.

In the political philosophy of the US, the unit whose freedoms matter is the individual, not the community. Freedoms for individuals necessarily come from reducing the freedom of "the community."

In reality though, the freedom of the companies, which is just the freedom of the super rich ~100 - 1000 people (proxied via companies without taking direct responsibility: The sacred duty of company is to maximize shareholder returns!)

10,000 food additives that are banned in Europe are perfectly fine in US.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-food-additives-banned-europe...

https://isitclean.org/the-ingredients-banned-in-the-eu-but-l...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#585

Post by verytrivial »

jdminhbg wrote: post #234
freehorse wrote: post #123

This is one of these US-specific polarised debates I find really bizarre, around some kind of issue that the rest of the world has by large solved but without any acknowledgement of this fact. Maybe the US should look into how other countries have solved it? It is completely bizarre witnessing both sides getting so polarised around a basically non-issue.

What I love about this comment is that one person thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and posted it, and then a bunch of other people thought "of course every other country just does the right thing when the US doesn't" and upvoted it, and not a single one of them thought to check what the "right thing" is. Meanwhile, back here on Earth-1, there's no right thing, and…

I thought the comment was about resolving the issue one way or the other without it becoming yet another polarization topic . It probably matters less in either resolution than the cost due schisms and distrust the "debate" causes.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#586

Post by logicchains »

imacomputertoo wrote: post #569
impossiblefork wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you will brush your teeth anyway, and then you apply fluoride topically. It works. Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic. It isn't sensible to use systemic exposure when we can use topical exposure and can improve mouth health by education, so that people do what they're supposed to. The fluoride approach achieves a basic level of health, but you can do s…

Fluoride is not "in fact toxic". A substance becomes toxic in high amounts. Vitamin D becomes toxic in high amounts. The level of fluoride in drinking water is well below the toxic level.

Fluoride exposure beyond a small amount has a statistically significant effect on childhood IQ: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#587

Post by 7bit »

stavros wrote: post #561
impossiblefork wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your GDP per capita is 50% higher than ours. You have money for this. If there's no will to raise up the poor, you it should be straightforward to use the state directly to ensure that everyone is taught how to brush their teeth and ensured to have access to brushes and toothpaste.

I agree with you, but GDP per capita isn't the correct measure here when the bottom 8% in the US has no health insurance compared to Sweden's 0%, which I have to assume because I didn't even find this measured anywhere due to universal healthcare.

It's a systemic issue that can be solved with one unanimous vote in Congress, that will NEVER happen in the foreseeable future.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#588

Post by amazingamazing »

ath3nd wrote: post #492
ekianjo wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can add fluoride in your own water if you want to. Nobody is preventing your own freedom to drink fluoride.

Nobody's preventing you from going and finding your own water source either. The government is too much of a nanny state for putting flouride in water for public health, but it's just fine for providing water to you in the first place?

In the USA it’s generally illegal to collect rain.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#589

Post by logicchains »

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

Excessive fluoride exposure is associated with reduced childhood IQ: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... . Giving poor people (the ones who can't afford to drink bottles water or buy a fancy filter) means to moderate their fluoride intake this risk is creating lower-iq, more obedient workers.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#590

Post by heeton »

zouhair wrote: post #579
pclmulqdq wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't use a toothbrush or toothpaste, and haven't ever really, as my ASD makes it unbearable. 99% of the world does brush their teeth, so I don't see how this is relevant to their health.

25% of the world population do not have access to drinkable water[0], brushing their teeth is a luxury for them. [0]: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/03/22/un-26-of-world-lacks-...

You need zero water to brush your teeth with toothpaste. Many dentists even say it’s preferable to not rinse your brush before and not rinse your mouth after.
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