Live data from Hacker News

I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

twitter.com

581–590 of 1001 posts

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wah, it can't write code like a Senior engineer with 20 years of experience! No, that's not my problem with it. My problem with it is that inbuilt into the models of all LLMs is that they'll fabricate a lot. What's worse, people are treating them as authoritative. Sure, sometimes it produces useful code. And often, it'll simply call the "doTheHardPart()" method. I've even caught it literally writing the wrong algor…

> What's worse, people are treating them as authoritative. So what? People are wrong all the time. What happens when people are wrong? Things go wrong. What happens then? People learn that the way they got their information wasn't robust enough and they'll adapt to be more careful in the future. This is the way it has always worked. But people are "worried" about LLMs... Because they're new. Don't worry, it's just an…

Being wrong when you are building a grocery management app is one thing, being wrong when building a bridge is another.

For those sensitive use cases, it is imperative we create regulation, like every other technology that came before it, to minimize the inherent risks.

In an unrelated example, I saw someone saying recently they don't like a new version of an LLM because it no longer has "cool" conversations with them, so take that as you will from a psychological perspective.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on the task. Like Sabine, I’m operating on the very frontier of a scientific domain that is extremely niche. Every single LLM out there is worse than useless in this domain. It spits out incomprehensible garbage. But ask it to solve some leet code and it’s brilliant.

Sabine is lex Friedman for women. Stay in your lane about quantum physics and stop trying to opine on LLMs. I’m tired of seeing the huge amount of FUD from her.

I think lex friedman is far, far worse

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#583
Use LLMs for what they are good at. Most of my prompts start with “What are my options for … ?” And they excel at that, particularly the recent reasoning models with the ability to search the web. They can help expand your horizons and analyze pros/cons from many angles.

Just today, I was thinking of making changes to my home theater audio setup and there are many ways to go about that, not to mention lots of competing products, so I asked ChatGPT for options and gave it a few requirements. I said I want 5.1 surround sound, I like the quality and simplicity of Sonos, but I want separate front left and right speakers instead of “virtual” speakers from a soundbar. I waited years thinking Sonos would add that ability, but they never did. I said I’d prefer to use the TV as the hub and do audio through eARC to minimize gaming latency and because the TV has enough inputs anyway, so I really don’t need a full blown AV receiver. Basically just a DAC/preamp that can handle HDMI eARC input and all of the channels.

It proceeded to tell me that audio-only eARC receivers that support surround sound don’t really exist as an off-the-shelf product. I thought, “What? That can’t be right, this seems like an obvious product. I can’t be the first one to have thought of this.” Turns out it was right, there are some stereo DAC/preamps that have an eARC input and I could maybe cobble together one as a DIY project, but nothing exactly like what I wanted. Interesting!

ChatGPT suggested that it’s probably because by the time a manufacturer fully implements eARC and all of the format decoding, they might as well just throw in a few video inputs for flexibility and mass-market appeal, plus one less SKU to deal with. And that kind of makes sense, though it adds excess buttons and bothers me from a complexity standpoint.

It then suggested WISA as a possible solution, which I had never heard of, and as a music producer I pay a lot of attention to speaker technology, so that was interesting to me. I’m generally pretty skeptical of wireless audio, as it’s rarely done well, and expensive when it is done well. But WISA seems like a genuine alternative to an AV receiver for someone who only wants it to do audio. I’m probably going to go with the more traditional approach, but it was fun learning about new tech in a brainstorming discussion. Google struggles with these sorts of broad research queries in my experience. I may or may not have found out about it if I had posted on Reddit, depending on whether someone knowledgeable happened to see my post. But the LLM is faster and knows quite a bit about many subjects.

I also can’t remember the last time it hallucinated when having a discussion like this. Whereas, when I ask it to write code, it still hallucinates and makes plenty of mistakes.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#584
post #579

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

Depends on your use case. If you don't need them to be the source of truth, then they work great, but if you do, the experience sucks because they're so unreliable. The problems start when people start hyperventilating because they think since LLMs can generate tests for a function for you, that they'll be replacing engineers soon. They're only suitable for generating output that you can easily verify to be correct.

Indeed, isn’t that the point?

LLM training is designed to distill a massive corpus of facts, in the form of token sequences, into a much, much smaller bundle of information that encodes (somehow!) the deep structure of those facts minus their particulars.

They’re not search engines, they’re abstract pattern matchers.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#585
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem Sabine tries to communicate is that reality is different from what the cash-heads behind main commercial models are trying to portray. They push the narrative that they’ve created something akin to human cognition, when in reality, they’ve just optimised prediction algorithms on an unprecedented scale. They are trying to say that they created Intelligence, which is the ability to acquire and apply knowled…

Much as i agree with the point about overhyping from companies, I'd be more sympathetic to this point of view if she acknowledged the merits of the technology. Yes, it hallucinates and if you replace your brain with one of these things, you won't last too long. However, it can do things which, in the hands of someone experienced, are very empowering. And it doesn't take an expert to see the potential. As it stands, i…

If it works for you...

I use LLMs. They're somewhat useful if you're on a non niche problem. They're also useful instead of search engines, but that's because search has been entshittified more than because a LLM is better.

However 90% of the marketing material about them is simply disgusting. The bigwigs sound like they're spreading a new religion, and most enthusiasts sound like they're new converts to some sect.

If you're marketing it as a tool, fine. If you're marketing it as the third and fourth coming of $DEITY, get lost.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, when she says "none of my students has ever invented references that just don't exist"...all I can say is "press X to doubt" I’ve never seen it from my students. Why do you think this? It’s trivial to pick a real book/article. No student is generating fake material whole cloth and fake references to match. Even if they could, why would they risk it?

Exactly. Lazy students just refer to vaguely related but existing material that they didn't read. Much better than llms! :-)

TBD whether that makes the effort to spot-check their references greater (does actually say what the student - explicitly or implicitly - claims it does?), or less (proving the non-existence of an obscure references is proving a negative)?

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#588
The way I see it, it's less about the technicalities of accuracy and more about the long term human and societal problems it presents when widely adopted.

On one hand, every new technology that comes about unregulated creates a set of ethical and in this particular case, existential issues.

- What will happen to our jobs?

- Who is held accountable when that car navigation system designed by an LLM went haywire and caused an accident?

- What will happen with education if we kill all entry level jobs and make technical skills redundant?

In a sense they're not new concerns in science, we research things to make life easier, but as technology advances, critical thinking takes a hit.

So yeah, I would say people are still right to be weary and 'bullish" of LLMs as it's the normal behaviour for disruptive technology, and one will help us create adequate regulations to safeguard the future.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#589

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

These are the people who give themselves self value by saying that amazing things have no value.

Maybe Freud could explain.

Re: I genuinely don't understand why some people are still bullish about LLMs

#590

I get so confused on this. I play around, test, and mess with LLMs all the time and they are miraculous. Just amazing, doing things we dreamed about for decades. I mean, I can ask for obscure things with subtle nuance where I misspell words and mess up my question and it figures it out. It talks to me like a person. It generates really cool images. It helps me write code. And just tons of other stuff that astounds me…

> And people just sit around, unimpressed, and complain that ... what ... it isn't a perfect superintelligence that understands everything perfectly? IMO there are two distinct reasons for this: 1. You've got the Sam Altman's of the world claiming that LLMs are or nearly are AGI and that ASI is right around the corner. It's obvious this isn't true even if LLMs are still incredibly powerful and useful. But Sam doing t…

I’m not sure how anyone can claim number 2 is true, unless it’s someone who is a programmer doing mostly grunt code and thinks every knowledge worker job is similar.

Just off the top of my head there are plenty of knowledge worker jobs where the knowledge isn’t public, nor really in written form anywhere. There just simply wouldn’t be anything for AI to train on.

Post reply on HN