Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#581

Post by frm88 » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 7:09 AM UTC

martin82 wrote: post #577

iammjm wrote: post #118

Europeans were perfectly happy to buy American tech und military exports, thus earning U.S. money and making EU technologically and politically dependent from the U.S. - it really was perfect for the U.S. But the US decided that it was actually a BAD DEAL and they wanted to extort even more money and dependence from EU. So now EU is investing in their own tech and military, thus reducing the amount of money US is get…

Are you living in a parallel universe? There is no conceivable path forward where Europe will somehow be able to compete on the world stage against US and China. Europe is more than two decades behind and in a death grip of the woke left, basically hell-bent on self destruction. All talent has left to US and Asia. Endless stupid regulations and crippling taxation make startups impossible. There is no way Europe will…

Do you have a source for that last sentence? All I can find is the opposite:

>

https://www.science.org/content/article/overseas-universitie...

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#582

Post by elproxy » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 7:14 AM UTC

fransje26 wrote: post #428

tored wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, France is somewhat of an exception. I remember during the Chirac presidency how viciously France was attacked by the other European countries, especially my own Sweden, for doing nuclear weapons testing in the South Pacific. Jump forward today and France is seen as a protector of Europe, especially in Sweden, because of its nuclear arsenal.

> doing nuclear weapons testing in the South Pacific. That was not the most glorious moment of Chirac's presidency, no.. However, as someone involved in numerical simulations, the argument that it was needed to calibrate their numerical models does hold (some..) water.. But Chirac did partly redeem himself by refusing to invade Iraq on bogus US claims of WMDs..

In fairness, he did so in part because this was going to go against Total's interests (see Oil, Power and War for that part of the story), but yeah, it was still the right stance to have and history proved him right.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#583

Post by amarcheschi » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 7:23 AM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #572

amarcheschi wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usa have the rights to exit nato just like any other country, I've heard nobody complaining about how the us shouldn't be allowed to

Here's another commenter in this thread explaining how I need to 'deal with it' and be humble about the US' global position: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43462237 It sure seems like they think the US has an obligation to stay. That's the subtext of a lot of what Europeans are saying online.

Well, of course by losing the global throne us will lose a lot, the biggest economy in the world can't (like, it won't happen, not like legally can't) literally be like Switzerland that is surrounded by more or less allies and doesn't have to protect much of its global interests.

By the way, your rants make me think you're spending a bit too much time online, online you'll find a lot of people just bashing whatever you say in a rude way

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#584

Post by mytailorisrich » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:37 AM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #561

mytailorisrich wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, everything we have seen and are seeing is neither organic nor caused by "right-wing" media ("left-wing" are no less problematic). It is organised and deeply so. The power ond effectiveness of the shaping of public opinion shows when people think they have not been influenced.

when all of the sudden europe is flood by ukrainian women leaving their husbands in the country to fight a country under bombs, you don’t really need media to provide you with a particular point of view. Reality and personal testimonies are far more than enough.

Europe was not "flooded" by anything and I see as many Ukrainian men as women here (it's illegal for men to leave Ukraine)... Although most of Ukraine has not seen combat, so effectively they are migrants who prefer to be in Europe than in Ukraine. The UK government even actually paid people to lodge Ukrainians for some reason...

This is what I am saying: superficial emotional reactions played by well-crafted propaganda and people confuse that with "reality".

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#585

Post by Jensson » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:43 AM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #578

Aloisius wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europeans seem much more collectivist, whereas the US is more individualist. That's why Europeans express disdain for US policies around healthcare, guns, etc. The US is plenty collectivist. Patriots who put country first and would die for it? That's collectivism. Someone who puts their family ahead of themselves? Also collectivism. One should disdain the US healthcare system not because it isn't "collectivist" (th…

>The US is plenty collectivist. Patriots who put country first and would die for it? That's collectivism. Someone who puts their family ahead of themselves? Also collectivism. Our discussion is on the topic of whether the US and Europe have common values. You can call this stuff "collectivism" if you want. But ironically I think it still indicates some deep US/Europe value differences. No one in the US believes peopl…

> No one in the US believes people should be obligated to serve in the military

USA still has legal support for conscription, so that is wrong. Plenty of people feel exactly that.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#586

Post by Jensson » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:48 AM UTC

niek_pas wrote: post #161

gadders wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always a surprise to see the contempt people in blue collar jobs are held in by Democrats.

Genuine question: is farming a blue collar job? My (possibly incorrect) image of farming is management of heavily industrialized processes, not of rolling up your sleeves.

Have you see any farmers with white collars? I haven't, they tend to wear working clothes even if they have lots of money.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#587

Post by Timon3 » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:53 AM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #537

Timon3 wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. My political opinions are instead based on the political positions, trend, instability & recently insanity of America. If I took personal opinions I'm reading online into consideration, I'd be very open to manipulation by the platforms themselves. Just look…

>It honestly doesn't have a bearing on my political leanings regarding America, especially since there are also many nice and wonderful Americans I interact with. OK, well, can you understand if some of your countrymen didn't wish to send troops to America's next Iraq, due to the xenophobia they experienced? That's just human nature regardless of what country you're from. That's what I've been trying to explain. You…

> OK, well, can you understand if some of your countrymen didn't wish to send troops to America's next Iraq, due to the xenophobia they experienced?

Sure! But has this ever not been the case? I think it's reasonable to assume that some level of xenophobia has always existed. So why are you suddenly so hurt about it? Could it be that platforms are deliberately showing you more and more of that, while not showing you positive interactions?

> You know that in the US, conservatives are over-represented in the military. If the US does fight Russia, they will be the ones dying for you. Driven by a sense of American patriotism that Europe loves to belittle. It just doesn't make any sense.

Right now it seems more likely that these same Americans will be fighting with Russia against us, so I hope you can accept that I have very little love left for American "patriotism" right now. Maybe try not threatening allies and dividing the spoils with our shared enemies, that would certainly help.

> I don't believe it's manipulation. Europeans have been anti-American for as long as I can remember. I don't think it is just an internet thing. But yes, it is ironic that lots of Europeans (in this thread even) post, and vote on comments, in more or less the way they would post if they were being paid by Russia.

Okay, but why is this suddenly such a big deal? You're apparently not perturbed by American xenophobia against us, why did you suddenly become so sensitive?

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#588

Post by modo_mario » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:55 AM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #460

modo_mario wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nothing short of this "abrupt change" has been successful in getting Europe to take responsibility for its own security. I think Europe always had the capacity for that. Russia is a nuclear armed state but as far as it's proportional spending goes it's worth noting it's economy is smaller than Italy. What it was lacking was political will and the urge to deal with fragmentation and unanimity. Especially wrt germany…

>Are your view of it on the comments of people online? Yes, I'm noting that uniquely among US allies, the internet is full of Europeans expressing anti-Americanism. And this has reduced American enthusiasm for the transatlantic alliance. There's no sense in trying to please someone who complains about you no matter what you do. I don't think it is just online, but the internet made it very clear to the US how Europea…

I could argue the very same about americans towards Europe. With Europe aiding the US in tradewars against japan, etc. actual wars in iraq, afghanistan, dealing with the fallout of that, etc Going against it's own foreign policy desires to appease the whims of [insert new administration] like a good set of vasals.

But basing your foreign policy on internet commenters is so deeply incredibly inane.

And get this. If you're hegemon you attract more slack no matter what you do. In many ways it involves being the geopolitical schoolyard bully and trump just makes that overtly clear. But it's not like protecting the dollars reserve currency status or any other such thing was something that didn't happen before and is now just being done to spite BRICS internet commenters.

Like what's next? Want to go to war in the middle east again because they dislike you?

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#589

Post by bsaul » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 8:59 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #584

bsaul wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when all of the sudden europe is flood by ukrainian women leaving their husbands in the country to fight a country under bombs, you don’t really need media to provide you with a particular point of view. Reality and personal testimonies are far more than enough.

Europe was not "flooded" by anything and I see as many Ukrainian men as women here (it's illegal for men to leave Ukraine)... Although most of Ukraine has not seen combat, so effectively they are migrants who prefer to be in Europe than in Ukraine. The UK government even actually paid people to lodge Ukrainians for some reason... This is what I am saying: superficial emotional reactions played by well-crafted propaga…

you should talk to one of them one day. Hear about their stories. Then you'll understand.

Re: Millions are visiting the European Alternatives site. What trends are we seeing?

#590

Post by mike_hearn » Tue, Mar 25, 2025, 9:22 AM UTC

defrost wrote: post #359

tsimionescu wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only matters if Brexit was about as bad for the direct personal interests of farmers as it was for the average Brit. If farmers had it far worse after Brexit than the average Brit, then it means farmers were especially dumb for voting against their own interests.

My comment above was written in response to an earlier version of the comment above it. That original version was phrased as to blame farmers for the plight of Brexit, as if a small group who voted more or less in line with with the nation made any kind of difference. Did farmers have it far worse after Brexit than the average Brit? My understanding is the nation as a whole suffered, with the exception of well off Br…

Your understanding is incorrect, but understandable if you read the wrong sources. There was so far no measurable negative impact of Brexit. Go look at graphs of trade balances, economic performance, etc. You can't see Brexit in them.

The only metric I can think of that was impacted was currency value on the day of the vote, but that dump was driven by predictions of economic problems that never happened so arguably those traders just took a bath due to believing the wrong people. It is anyway not necessarily bad for a country like the UK to have a lower valued currency; economists had for years been arguing it was overvalued and would be better if the currency was cheaper, so this is a bit of a wash.

All the comments being made here about people voting against their own interests start by assuming that voter's interests are exclusively trade-related, and that constitutional issues don't matter to people at all. This is clearly wrong but a required assumption for the whole against-their-own-interests claim to work. And then it goes on to conflate predictions with reality, by assuming that because the NGO-academic class predicted economic doom it must have actually happened when it didn't.

Both of these are fatal flaws to the argument.

The only way I can see to argue there was negative impact is via very indirect paths, e.g. the voters wanted less immigration and Johnson set the thresholds in the new immigration system so low that immigration increased. But that's more accurately blamed on the Conservatives and the general ideological hangover of EU membership on the party itself, not leaving. Voters can at least do something about it now, and the rise of Reform (Britain's new top-polling party) is evidence of that effect in action.