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DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

theatlantic.com

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Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#581

Post by csomar »

intended wrote: post #106
drowsspa wrote: post #18

I find it wild that apparently there is no law onto which government workers can cling to refuse these requests. Is it all just based on conventions, goodwill and culture?

The most distressing thing I learned in the past 3 ~~Years~~ edit: months,, was how MUCH laws are about norms. Norms, are basically the way laws work in the real world. I despaired, because this is natural to lawyers, and alien entirely to the layperson. No one is going to think Justice, and then accept “Oh, our norms are how laws work”.

Laws come from norms with a few practices to make them seem "legit". It's too hard and expensive for the ruler to oppose the masses. It has a significant political cost. Successful rulers just ride the masses current trend. It's like a tamed down hysteria.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#582

Post by TomK32 »

axus wrote: post #517

Government should have access to its own data. Justice and Congress should have the same access for oversight. The only problem I see is personal data about non-government people is being exposed to the entire planet. They should have developed good security practices first and maybe spent more than a week reviewing a plan, and not having a double standard about their own activities.

Justice doesn't need the same access like Congress, it's enough if they can subpoena relevant data. Even personal data about government people shouldn't be exposed as this opens weakness the be exploited by social engineering.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#583

Post by meijer »

borgster wrote: post #216

The President is the head of the executive branch. If _anyone_ in the executive branch has access to information, it feels like the presidents office should too. Why is this hard to accept?

Ultimately it's about trust.

And why would you trust Trump or Musk?

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#584

Post by IncreasePosts »

femto wrote: post #183
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are laws, but you will get fired if you try to follow them, and lawsuits to remedy that take time. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/usaid-sec...

Is it true to say that in practise there are no laws here? If anyone in DOGE breaks the law, can't the President just issue a blanket pardon? If the President himself breaks the law, he argues that it was in the course of his official duties [1]. [1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf

In that case, can't the next president just illegally imprison Elon or trump or whoever for their entire administration, ignore supreme court rulings or lawsuits or whatever, and then issue themselves a pardon at the end?

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#585

Post by okeuro49 »

ideashower wrote: post #396
eecc wrote: post #201

IMHO it's a bit of a shame that the productivity and efficiency gains that computing and cybernetics can bring to complex systems -- including government -- are always tainted and currently championed by anti-social elites that use them to break apart these collective machines. Bureaucracies are a common good, and it should be in everyone's interest to apply state-of-the-art system engineering to make them as valuabl…

Bureaucracies are a “common good” because of their human element: the ability to exercise discretion, recognize unique circumstances, and be held accountable to the public they serve. The challenge is harnessing technology while strengthening these essential human capacities. Anything otherwise erodes public trust and sows division.

> Bureaucracies are a “common good” because of their human element

This is a joke --right?

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#586

Post by nielsbot »

gattr wrote: post #451

Perhaps the whole situation will finally convince the "I don't mind, I have nothing to hide" crowd about the need to scrutinize & limit as much as reasonably possible the personal data collection and retention by government and other entities. What good are rules, statutes, checks & balances, passwords and ACLs, if at some point someone you don't like or trust can just come in "as a root" and circumvent everything?

i like to ask those people “fine, but do have shades on your windows? i mean if you have nothing to hide…”

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#587

Post by swat535 »

Setting politics aside for a moment, I find it fascinating that an audit of this scale is taking place within the government. Has there ever been a historical precedent where an external agency thoroughly reviewed all departments, published its findings for the public, and then based decisions on that analysis?

Is it really possible to root out governmental fraud using this approach? Fraud and theft exist at every level of government, but if not through a drastic measure like this, what else can be done? Relying on the status quo, the courts, and current processes hasn’t yielded substantial results—if it had, corruption wouldn’t persist.

Still, I can appreciate the creativity here. Sometimes it takes an outsider to think differently.

That said, I’m not naive enough to assume this is done entirely in good faith. The prevailing opinion—both in this community and the media—seems largely negative; I’ve yet to see a single positive headline. Even so, I find it intriguing.

So here’s my question: if you were in charge of addressing this problem, how would you tackle it differently?

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#588

Post by intended »

alt227 wrote: post #311
intended wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Reality has a famously left wing bias. Personally I would say that extreme left supporters are in my experience much louder and more emotive with their arguments.

sure - the extreme left voices have definitely become louder, because this kind of emotive argumentation is wildly successful.

But they are following the path blazed elsewhere. The primary source of griping and emotion have been owned by right wing media. It’s their whole shtick.

The statement itself, is because tons of research comes for universities, which the conservative news and opinion machine are dedicated to denigrate and demolish.

So you see reality have a left wing bias, because conservative information providers have to reduce support and credibility of science.

See creationism for an example of how far this has been taken.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#589

Post by moduspol »

riffraff wrote: post #29
aredox wrote: post #5

If they have the ability to change data, then absolutely none of their claims can be trusted. Neither Musk nor his A-team of hackers have demonstrated any integrity through their career - contrary to HN guidelines, the default position is to assume the worst from them. Think about it once they begin putting the opposition on show trials.

their claims can't be trusted because they fail at basic accounting and reading. Something something malice incompetence. https://twitter.com/electricfutures/status/18918983362081056... > The single biggest ticket item is a DHS contract listed as saving $8 billion. Wow, that's a huge contract! Actually no, it's $8 million. They must have tried to automate scraping the FPDS form and failed.

This talking point keeps blowing my mind.

They occasionally make minor mistakes! If only voters had known that occasionally minor mistakes (in reporting of all places) might be made, they'd have insisted we stick with the bureaucracy they know and love!

But hey, I guess it at least did happen. It's better than the grasping-at-straws "they'll probably leak your SS number" talking point. And the "he'll redirect treasury payments to himself" talking point.

Re: DOGE has 'god mode' access to government data

#590

Post by ipv6ipv4 »

Tarsul wrote: post #150
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were signs but people thought it implausibly stupid: > Vice-president JD Vance has cited Yarvin as an influence, saying in 2021, "So there's this guy Curtis Yarvin who has written about these things," which included "Retire All Government Employees," or RAGE, written in 2012. Vance said that if Trump became president again, "I think what Trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice: Fire every singl…

hm, maybe it's better if Trump stays president for 4 years (instead of Vance coming up). The devil you know...

Vance doesn’t have Trump’s sway with the ‘base’, or mob. Vance can have all the dictatorial aspirations in the world, but he doesn’t have the popular support or influence, like Trump does, to act on them.
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