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Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

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581–590 of 886 posts

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#581
post #144

There's such a huge disconnect between people reading headlines and developers who are actually trying to use AI day to day in good faith. We know what it is good at and what it's not. It's incredibly far away from doing any significant change in a mature codebase. In fact I've become so bearish on the technology trying to use it for this, I'm thinking there's going to have to be some other breakthrough or something…

I'm surprised to see a huge disconnect between how I perceive things and the vast majority of comments here. AI is obviously not good enough to replace programmers today. But I'm worried that it will get much better at real-world programming tasks within years or months. If you follow AI closely, how can you be dismissive of this threat? OpenAI will probably release a reasoning-based software engineering agent this y…

https://tinyurl.com/mrymfwwp

We will see, maybe models do get good enough but I think we are underestimating these last few percent of improvement.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#582
> Imagine a company that fires its software engineers, replaces them with AI-generated code, and then sits back, expecting everything to just work. This is like firing your entire fire department because you installed more smoke detectors. It’s fine until the first real fire happens.

I feel like this analogy really doesn't capture the situation, because it implies that it would take some event to make companies realize they made a mistake. The reality right now is: You'd notice it instantly. Product velocity would drop to zero. Who is prompting the AI?

The AI-is-replacing-programmers debate is honestly kinda tired, on both sides. Its just not happening. It might be happening in the same way that pirated movies "steal" income from hollywood: maybe companies are expanding more slowly, because we're ramping up per-capita productivity because engineers are learning how to leverage it to enhance their own output (and its getting better and better). But, that's how every major tool and abstraction works. If we still had to write in assembly there'd be 30x the number of engineers out there than there are.

There's no mystical point where AI will get good enough to replace engineers, not because it won't continue getting better, but because the economic pie is continually growing, and as the AI Nexus Himself, Marc Andreesen, has said several times: Humanity has an infinite demand for code. If you can make engineers 10x more efficient, what will happen in most companies is: we don't want to cut engineering costs by N% and stagnate, we want 10x more code and growth. Maybe we hire fewer engineers going forward.

> But with the AI craze, companies aren’t investing in junior developers. Why train people when you can have a model spit out boilerplate?

This is not happening. Its fun, pithy reasoning that Good and Righteous White Knight Software Engineers can prescribe onto the Evil and Bad HR and Business Leadership people, but its just not, in any meaningful or broad sense, a narrative that you hear while hiring.

The reason why juniors are struggling to find work right now is literally just because the industry is in a down cycle. During down cycles, companies are going to prioritize stability, and seniority is stability. That's it.

When the market recovers, and as AI gets better and more prolific, I think there's a reality where juniors are actually a great ROI for companies, thanks to AI. They've been using it their whole career. They're cheaper. AI might be a productivity multiplier for all engineers; but it will definitely be a productivity normalizer for juniors; using it to check for mistakes, learn about libraries and frameworks faster, its such a great upleveling tool for juniors.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#583
post #144

There's such a huge disconnect between people reading headlines and developers who are actually trying to use AI day to day in good faith. We know what it is good at and what it's not. It's incredibly far away from doing any significant change in a mature codebase. In fact I've become so bearish on the technology trying to use it for this, I'm thinking there's going to have to be some other breakthrough or something…

I think that LLMs are only going to make people with real tech/programming skills much more in demand, as younger programmers skip straight into prompt engineering and never develop themselves technically beyond the bare minimum needed to glue things together. The gap between people with deep, hands-on experience that understand how a computer works and prompt engineers will become so insanely deep. Somebody needs to…

yup. the good news is this should make interviewing easier; bad news is there'll be fewer qualified candidates.

the other thing, though, is that you and I know that LLMs can't write or debug operating systems, but the people who pay us and see LLMs writing prose and songs? hmm

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#584
We are already seeing how the speed of development plays a more important role than the quality of the software product (for example, the use of Electron in the most popular software). Software will become shittier but people will continue to use it. So LLM's will become just another abstraction level in modern programming, like JS frameworks. No company will regret firing real programmers because LLMs will be cheaper and end users don't care about performance.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#585
post #144

There's such a huge disconnect between people reading headlines and developers who are actually trying to use AI day to day in good faith. We know what it is good at and what it's not. It's incredibly far away from doing any significant change in a mature codebase. In fact I've become so bearish on the technology trying to use it for this, I'm thinking there's going to have to be some other breakthrough or something…

They all sounds like crypto bros talking about AI. It's really frustrating to talk to them, just like crypto bros.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#587
post #564
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try asking your GPS for the Western blue line stop on the Chicago L. (There are two of them and it will randomly pick one)

What is “your GPS” meant here. With Google Maps and Apple Maps it consistently picks the closest one (this being within minutes to both but much closer to one), which seems reasonable. Maybe not ideal as when either of these apps will bring up a disambiguation for a super market chain or similar, but I’m not witnessing randomness.

To be clear, above i was talking about LLMs. Randomness in real GPS usage is something I have never encountered in using Google maps already since 15 years or so. 99 percent of the time it brings/brought me exactly where i want to be, even around road works or traffic jams. It seems some people have totally different experiences, so odd.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#588
> The ones who didn’t take FAANG jobs but instead went deep into systems programming, AI interpretability, or high-performance computing

I appreciate a good FAANG hatefest, but what the gosh-darn heck is this? Does the author seriously think all FAANG engineers only transform and sling gRPC all day? Or they they blindly stumbled into being hyperscalers?

The author should randomly pick a mailing list on any if those topics (systems programming, AI interpretability, HPC) and count the number of emails from FAANG domains

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that LLMs are only going to make people with real tech/programming skills much more in demand, as younger programmers skip straight into prompt engineering and never develop themselves technically beyond the bare minimum needed to glue things together. The gap between people with deep, hands-on experience that understand how a computer works and prompt engineers will become so insanely deep. Somebody needs to…

I think we who are already in tech have this gleeful fantasy that new tools impair newcomers in a way that will somehow serve us, the incumbents, in some way. But in reality pretty much anyone who enters software starts off cutting corners just to build things instead of working their way up from nand gates. And then they backfill their knowledge over time. My first serious foray into software wasn't even Ruby. It wa…

> "But it's not satisfying to stay at that level of ignorance very long"

It's not about satisfaction: it's literally dangerous and can bankrupt your employer, cause immense harm to your customers and people at home, and make you unhirable as an engineer.

Let's take your example of "an S3 avatar upload system", which you consider finished after writing 2 lines of code and a couple of packages installed. What makes sure this can't be abused by an attacker to DDOS your system, leading to massive bills from AWS? What happens after an attacker abuses this system and takes control of your machines? What makes sure those avatars are "safe-for-work" and legal to host in your S3 bucket?

People using LLMs and feeling all confident about it are the equivalent of hobby carpenters after watching a DIY video on YouTube and building a garden shed over the weekend. You're telling me they're now qualified to go build buildings and bridges?

> "It's like presuming that StackOverflow will keep you as a question-asker your whole life when nobody here would relate to that."

I meet people like this during job interviews all of the time, if I'm hiring for a position. Can't tell you how many people with 10+ years of industry experience I met recently that can't explain how to read data from a local file, from the machine's file system.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we who are already in tech have this gleeful fantasy that new tools impair newcomers in a way that will somehow serve us, the incumbents, in some way. But in reality pretty much anyone who enters software starts off cutting corners just to build things instead of working their way up from nand gates. And then they backfill their knowledge over time. My first serious foray into software wasn't even Ruby. It wa…

> But it's not satisfying to stay at that level of ignorance very long That's the difference. This is how you feel because you like programming to some extent. Having worked closely with them, I can tell you there are many people going into bootcamps that flat out dislike programming and just heard it pays well. Some of them get jobs, but they don't want to learn anything. They just want to do as much that doesn't ge…

There have been people entering the profession for (purported) money and not love of the craft for at least as long as the 20 years I've been in it. So long as there are also people who still genuinely enjoy it and take pride in doing the job well, then the junior->expert pipeline isn't lost.

I buy that LLMs may shift the proportion of those two camps. But doubt it will really eliminate those who genuinely love building things with code.

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