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Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

arstechnica.com

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Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#581

Post by gosub100 »

kshri24 wrote: post #307
demosthanos wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the corollary of the fallacy of appeal to authority: the rejection of an argument on the grounds that the speaker was horribly wrong on an unrelated or very loosely related topic. If you reject Macaulay on copyright because he was an imperialist, you can use the exact same logic to reject the arguments of essentially every person who ever lived. Very few humans who ever wrote anything important will perfectly…

> If you reject Macaulay on copyright because he was an imperialist On the contrary I would argue that this is precisely why you SHOULD NOT take his opinion on copyright. One of the main outcomes of imperialism/colonization is denigrating/destroying/appropriating works of art, literature with the primary goal of subjugation, subversion and thereupon replacement of native culture/traditions/institutions. I did not quo…

if Indians are so free from colonialism, why are their parents forcing them to choose between medicine or tech, simply so they can get a job on the antipode of where they are born??

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#582

Post by clueless »

peterbonney wrote: post #574

The more I learn about how AI companies trained their models, the more obvious it is that the rest of us are just suckers. We're out here assuming that laws matter, that we should never misrepresent or hide what we're doing for our work, that we should honor our own terms of use and the terms of use of other sites/products, that if we register for a website or piece of content we should always use our work email addr…

yep, pretty much.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#583

Post by bko »

ziddoap wrote: post #207
bko wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is Google, meta and YouTube weren't giant entities when they did this stuff. I think it's good no one cracked down on them for copyright stuff. Now they're developing an LLM that will generate potentially trillions in value to humanity and looks like they're not exactly playing by the rules. But I prefer looser intellectual property rights anyway so Im ok with it

> But I prefer looser intellectual property rights anyway so Im ok with it I think more people, potentially anyways, would feel similar to to this if it applied even somewhat equally. Instead, companies can seemingly do whatever they please whereas lawyers will send letters to your home for downloading a single episode of game of thrones.

> Instead, companies can seemingly do whatever they please whereas lawyers will send letters to your home for downloading a single episode of game of thrones.

I don't get it. All these companies took copyrighted data when they were tiny grew to be large, they still do that now. Google and OpenAI don't send these letters. They're not the copyright holders.

I have no idea what argument you're trying to make. Corporations bad?

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#584

Post by CamperBob2 »

rchaud wrote: post #166
illegalmemory wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" If you plug a laptop into a closet at MIT to download some scientific papers you forfeit your life." This is exactly what I immediately thought while reading the article. It almost feels like the legal system only punishes general public, while most of these guys are above it.

Airbnb and Uber have showed us that laws matter only to the extent that the political will to enforce them exists. Throw enough lawyers and lobbying money at the problem and the laws can simply be re-written to be friendlier to your business model.

Airbnb and Uber have showed us that laws matter only to the extent that the political will to enforce them exists.

Laws matter to the extent that they don't interfere with actual progress. Laws that would have prevented the LLMs we have today from being developed should be ignored, as should laws requiring us to pay tribute to taxi and hotel cartels.

Respect for the law is going to be an increasingly-hard sell going forward, and that's mostly the lawmakers' own fault. When the law does not respect the people, the people will not respect the law.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#585

Post by burningion »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #580
burningion wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument ignores the fact that there were other alternatives to Uber at the time, ones that didn't break the law! Believe it or not, there were multiple ride hailing apps on the iPhone, but none were as great at accumulating capital or breaking the law without recourse.

The laws they allegedly broke were the taxi medallion cartel laws, which were the things keeping taxis terrible by limiting supply and competition. And those laws in general apply to the drivers rather than the ride hailing service. There is also a lot of ambiguity there, e.g. if you have a ride sharing service where people go on the app to find people to carpool with on a trip they'd be making anyway and then contri…

No, these are not only the laws they allegedly broke.

They created a project named Greyball to identify law enforcement and mislead them.

They created a kill switch for the event of a government raid to gather evidence.

They ordered and then canceled rides on competitor apps.

They tracked journalists and politicians...

The list goes on and on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Uber

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#586

Post by Domenic_S »

mschuster91 wrote: post #528
johnebgd wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rooted for Uber to smash the Taxi cartels. Let us not forget that Taxi Cartels were also insidious beasts. Taxi drivers abused their walled garden with their price gouging by taking longer routes, refusal to take a credit card, and extremely poorly maintained fleets of vehicles. I have had mostly good experiences with Uber, whereas I had experiences that mostly bordered on general condescension toward me whenever I…

The solution to that would not have been rabid capitalism just bulldozing over laws because the laws suck and further entrenching that "laws only matter for the poor". The solution to the pre-Uber state of the taxi industry would be to actually have the regulations authorities enforce the regulation. But it seems across the Western world that having regulations authorities do their job and regulate is like the devil…

Let's not pretend that the taxi situation was hunkey-dory before big-bad-tech came onto the scene. There's no regulation that says if I call dispatch to request a taxi one has to show up, and "we'll pick you up when we pick you up" was (and is still) a common mode of operation.

In NYC, it was (is?) against the law to hail a black car on the street, even if they were sitting there ready willing and able to drive you, because the taxi cartel got _regulations_ to make it that way.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#587

Post by AnthonyMouse »

thatcat wrote: post #533
johnebgd wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rooted for Uber to smash the Taxi cartels. Let us not forget that Taxi Cartels were also insidious beasts. Taxi drivers abused their walled garden with their price gouging by taking longer routes, refusal to take a credit card, and extremely poorly maintained fleets of vehicles. I have had mostly good experiences with Uber, whereas I had experiences that mostly bordered on general condescension toward me whenever I…

Political will shouldn't be required to enforce existing law. If i started a 1 man illegal taxi service it would be shut down even though it has little effect on the community, but saudi vc funded startup wasn't shut down even though it violated laws in every major city. That is a weird asymmetry as a us citizen.

What's really happening here is that the laws are supposed to reflect the political will, i.e. the will of the people, but in many cases they don't, because the lawmakers have been captured by incumbents.

Then if a little guy comes in and tries to challenge them, they don't have the resources to resist the incumbents' pocket government officials and get destroyed. But if a big fish does it, people actually notice if the government tries to enforce stupid laws against them, and then government officials are afraid to do it because the public would not only not like it but actually notice the unreasonableness of the law.

But the problem here isn't that the law isn't being enforced against a well-heeled challenger, it's that those laws exist to be enforced against the little guy, when they should instead be repealed.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#588

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

everforward wrote: post #336
malfist wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright and patent aren't the same thing. "Fast moving field" doesn't make sense in terms of copyrights. There's no reason the copywriter should last some minimum duration after the life of the creator. If I write a really popular book, I don't want Hollywood to make it into a movie without compensating me just because they waited a few years

Fast moving field does make sense in terms of copyright because the knowledge is recorded in documents which are then copyrighted. E.g. research papers. > If I write a really popular book, I don't want Hollywood to make it into a movie without compensating me just because they waited a few years I genuinely don't understand this. Even at a decade copyright, pretty much anybody who was going to buy the book and read i…

> Even at a decade copyright, pretty much anybody who was going to buy the book and read it has already done so. It costs you virtually nothing in sales, and society benefits from the resulting movie.

If the movie can be made then the book can be printed and sold by any publisher, under the current system. It creates a race to the bottom on the price of the book as soon as the copyright duration is done. Perhaps extending "fair use" stuff could allow one and not the other.

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#589

Post by clueless »

nkrisc wrote: post #262
perihelions wrote: post #65

Best way to "punish" Meta is to slash the Gordian knot and abolish copyright. Level the playing field, incrementally, for everyone else who isn't a trillion-dollar corporation. The alternative is a futile legalistic attack against a monopoly entity too powerful to be meaningfully punished. That won't accomplish anything useful. It would, rather, help cement this status quo, where copyright infringement is selectively…

What's the alternative to copyright then? Anything I create will be instantly reproduced and sold for less than I can afford to by some entity far larger and more efficient than me. > Level the playing field, incrementally, for everyone else who isn't a trillion-dollar corporation. There is no level playing field when you have individuals and trillion-dollar companies in the same market.

Right, all this talk about getting rid of copyright and no one is talking about what should replace it? how would we we incentives people to write good books? to pour 1000s of hours of their time to produce new knowledge?

Re: Meta torrented & seeded 81.7 TB dataset containing copyrighted data

#590

Post by wrs »

peterbonney wrote: post #574

The more I learn about how AI companies trained their models, the more obvious it is that the rest of us are just suckers. We're out here assuming that laws matter, that we should never misrepresent or hide what we're doing for our work, that we should honor our own terms of use and the terms of use of other sites/products, that if we register for a website or piece of content we should always use our work email addr…

And if you were in any doubt before, this lesson is now exemplified by the holder of the highest office in the land and approved by popular vote. The rewards of acting ethically are, unfortunately, sometimes only personal. This must be a hard environment to raise children in, given the examples they see around them.
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