No one expects young men to do anything and they respond by doing nothing (2022)

It's time for us to trust the science again and do what we can to keep families together so that children gain all the advantages of having an involved father.

Money isn't the only stress factor, it is that a child suddenly can become the primary relation to their parent and they might even be alone with that in case of only child. Of course additional family and siblings and a bunch of other environmental factors would have an effect too.

I do think it has an influence, but it cannot be reduced to that. To state the opposite is probably just bad science like in so many cases. It is the hypothyroidism explanation of social sciences.

But that was your claim:

> this disadvantage disappears once you normalize for the socioeconomic conditions

And the tirade about families changing hints as the usual ideological slant. But for nobody under 50 divorces are anything new.

For, it is table stakes to be generally decent at having a work ethic at all, and to also value family time (within the reasonable constraints of work), and thus to do your reasonable best within your means even if that means a pretty meager, but passable material lifestyle, and/or there's an attempt to consistently make time for family regularly every week, even if it's a little limited by work schedule.

It only takes 10 minutes to tuck your child in and chat with them a little and if that's all you have most days because you're busy buying food and rent for them, that's OK. You have to eat and they have to eat, so it takes no extra time to eat together, even if it's a McDonald's or a can of beans and a loaf of bread, even if it doesn't work out every day.

But it's generally seen as not very good to go too extreme in one direction or the other (borderline homeless / broken home due to not working at all or habitually quitting jobs rashly without better lined up isn't OK, and "working rich" dad who never sees the kids ever and seems disinterested the one time he has an hour once week also isn't OK)

A similar example of values being more important than execution, is that nothing stops a very uneducated parent from highly valuing education (and in America, this is a lot more common in Hispanic, Jewish[1], and Asian cultures, for example) and pushing their child to exceed their own meager achievement. The fact that the parent may never be able to cogently discuss the things the kid is learning once they get past elementary school doesn't really stop a darned thing. The palpable incredible pride says it all.

Contrast this to the cultures where kids who try to achieve are seen as traitors and getting too big for their britches. I was very sad to know some young men in Arkansas when I went to college there who struggled with these mixed expectations, coming from a community where they felt that they would be borderline ostracized for rising "so much higher" than they started. This was one of the things in Hillbilly Elegy, which I recently read, that really rang true, even if some others seemed questionable or played up for bestseller appeal (the violent criminal uncle tall tales come to mind -- nugget of truth in them or not, they were obviously selected from the available universe of lore to paint a certain engaging picture-story)

Values matter, even when they can't be realized. Rules matter, even when you're getting away with breaking them. Hypocrisy is a feature, not a bug, contrary to popular belief. Even an ill-observed rule imposes clear costs on its avoidance, etc.

[1] Who can forget the line in Fiddler on the Roof, where the poor working father protagonist is fantasizing about being rich, but after singing about big houses and fancy clothes, settles on time to get educated as the greatest luxury he pines for?

> "If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack

> To sit in the synagogue and pray

> Maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall

> And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day

> That would be the sweetest thing of all"

And what evidence could you provide (say, a description of your methodology, hours of search, resources searched, notes you've taken along the way, etc) can you offer to support your "is no good (how convenient) evidence"?

> It’s a limiting perspective because you stay stuck in the mode of bickering among yourselves about who has seen the light and who hasn’t.

That may seem to be the case, but maybe ~no one has seen the light (perhaps due to a culturally infused unwillingness to try)?

> Instead of the more useful perspective...

You have no way of knowing the utility of either approach. Realizing this (including how to realize it) is highly useful.

> then it won’t take much to convince them (X years of brainwashing does not take X years to undo).

I agree with this, except for the "won’t take much to convince them", as it could be mistaken to mean that finding the method also won't take much. But I will always upvote optimism!