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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#581

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

shiroiushi wrote: post #490
tsimionescu wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan and the similar levels of aid that the USA poured into post-nazi Germany, post-fascist Italy, post-imperial Japan. That turned War-torn bitter enemies into some of the staunchest US allies today. Given Israel's position of power, they can and should be doing this. However, Israeli politicians just don't want thi…

>We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan Japan, Germany, and Italy's people didn't practice a religion that required them to hate Americans. For Germany and Italy in particular, they followed (basically) the same religion as most Americans. Japan never really had much religion. And none of these WWII powers were theocratic states in any way, or govern…

> Japan, Germany, and Italy's people didn't practice a religion that required them to hate Americans.

I mean historically Jews were treated much better by Islam than they were by Christians, so I'm not sure that argument holds up.

Now, given that Israel has been occupying the land of the Palestinians for over fifty years now, there's definitely gonna be a lot of anger there. But flattening Gaza is definitely not gonna help with that.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#582

Post by incognos »

diggan wrote: post #575
ildjarn wrote: post #571

Is it appropriate to call this a war? To me it seems more like a nation state fighting a terrorist group, with heavy civilian losses.

Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.

You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#583

Post by jdietrich »

tsimionescu wrote: post #453
screye wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe another method is needed then? What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. I can give you my recent examples of previous instances that are now mo…

We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan and the similar levels of aid that the USA poured into post-nazi Germany, post-fascist Italy, post-imperial Japan. That turned War-torn bitter enemies into some of the staunchest US allies today. Given Israel's position of power, they can and should be doing this. However, Israeli politicians just don't want thi…

Germany, Italy and Japan unconditionally surrendered. The Marshall Plan didn't create peace, it rebuilt societies once peace had been established.

Do we imagine that Germany would have agreed to peace in 1944 or 1939 if only the Allies had given enough aid?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#584

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

fullspectrumdev wrote: post #434
Qem wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. Sticking to quite recent examples: South Africa, Basque Country, Ireland.

The violence hasn’t really stopped in any of those places. Some participants have changed though.

Huh? The violence in Northern Ireland has 100% stopped.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#585

Post by incognos »

dudefeliciano wrote: post #574
ildjarn wrote: post #571

Is it appropriate to call this a war? To me it seems more like a nation state fighting a terrorist group, with heavy civilian losses.

would special military operation be a better term?

How about massacre and genocide? they seem far more appropriate to a one sided military operation.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#586

Post by sharikous »

someotherperson wrote: post #446
kaba0 wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scales are so completely different that that analogy is just done in bad faith.

Much as I asked the other commenter, how many school shooters would need to be in the school before we believe it's valid? Let's change the analogy: ISIS terrorists take over the MIT campus. Inside the university are 50 armed terrorists. Is it valid to now bomb the university? What if there are 100 terrorists? There is no issue with scale here. No matter how much it scales, you won't reach a point where there is an e…

So what do you think would happen if terrorists took over the MIT campus, students sympathized with them, rockets were launched from it, and the US police had no presence there and very sparse intelligence?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#587

Post by smcin »

hef19898 wrote: post #512
bawolff wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Onus doesn’t mean legal requirement. Civilized nations can be, should be, and generally are held to standards far exceeding legal statutes. Are they? USA literally has a law on the books that authorizes bombing the netherlands if any of their troops are ever held responsible. Trump pardoned 4 people who masacared civilians (including 2 children) in Iraq The west doesn't just not go beyond the legal requirements, it…

Proof forbthe claim about the US bombing the Netherlands please.

GP is referring to the "Hague Invasion Act", aka "American Service-Members' Protection Act of 2002" passed under GW Bush to authorize a US invasion of The Hague, to protect American officials and military personnel from prosecution [by the ICC] or rescue them from custody. Originally drafted in response to the Iraq invasion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#588

Post by tromp »

incognos wrote: post #582
diggan wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if both parties have declared war against each other, I think it's fair to call it a war. Besides, does it matter what you call it? It's a war for all intents and purposes. Every war/invasion/special military operation is seemingly a "The good guys (me) against the bad guys/terrorists (you)" conflict, and if that's not war, I'm not sure what is.

You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.

Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#589

Post by GordonS »

philwelch wrote: post #382
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dense urban area, it has civilians and children. That bomb is large enough to level an apartment block, so ~100 casualties and they don't know where it will land. Who are they targeting with that type of bomb, 1 Hamas fighter hiding among population? It's error margin is in hundreds of meters. You are not allowed to kill 100 innocent people in the hopes (not certainty!) of getting 1 enemy soldier. That's exact…

Israel isn’t targeting lone Hamas fighters with these bombs, they’re targeting large Hamas facilities, most of which are buried underground.

And yet, months on and numerous false claims later, I've yet to see see any credible evidence of a large, undergroud Hamas facility.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#590

Post by _xivi »

tety wrote: post #470
_xivi wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the others documented here? What about journalists from before, even completely outside Gaza, like Shireen Abu Akleh, the American-palestinian journalist who was sniped while reporting? There seems to be a long history of Israel targeting journalists exclusively and even their funerals https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/news/not-just-shi...

The fact that journalists in war zones died doesn't mean these were "targeted exclusively" is there any evidence that Israel has targeted journalists intentionally that weren't involved in the fighting?

> is there any evidence that Israel has targeted journalists intentionally that weren't involved in the fighting?

Yes my dear, there's plenty. Many journalists had an airstrike called on their homes. Some were not in it at the time, others were killd with their families while not involved in the fighting or on the frontline. Many journalists also received direct threats from Israeli intelligence agencies pushing them to leave the country.

- https://cpj.org/2023/12/father-of-al-jazeeras-anas-al-sharif...

- Gaza journalist killed alongside 42 relatives, news agency says: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67350709

This just a sample. An airstrike is a targeted attack. Unless you can come up with evidence that they were targeting something else in each case?

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